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Homebrewed Christianity

Equipping grassroots theologians for creative thinking, engaging, and living.

Claremont School of Theology

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When Total Depravity is Totally Unhelpful

May 8, 2013 by Bo Sanders 17 Comments

I was asked to review a blog-post by Donald Miller called “New Research May Change Your Views on the Depravity of Man”. This is not something I would normally do, but I took a look at it and found a couple of interesting glitches in the thoughts that were expressed. Pastor Holding Bible

 

Nerd Alert: Disclaimers

Anytime a free-will person – and I am a Wesleyan – even brings up any Calvin-influenced theme, it is inevitable that real Calvin fans are going to object by saying ‘if you really understood Calvin …’.  So let me just say that I am talking about the street-level average person in the pew using diluted concepts they have inherited. 

I know that Donald Miller is not a theologian. He is however a very public voice that is comfortable utilizing theological words and ideas. 

 

Total depravity is a completely unhelpful concept in the 21st century. It has accumulated so much baggage and has become so convoluted in it’s common use that is entirely unclear and totally unhelpful for any meaningful contribution.

Total depravity in it’s contemporary usage – like we see with Miller’s post – is at best an a priori category that one crams data into to mold it to the form. At worst it is, to borrow from Zizek, like the person who walks into a house that has a horseshoe over the door frame and assumes that it is the horseshoe’s power that keeps the house safe.

Never mind that there are houses still standing that have no horseshoe above the door – as well as houses that had horseshoes that are no longer standing.

Total depravity is totally unhelpful as a category of analysis. 

I would like to suggest three alternatives for our everyday conversation:

  1. As an initial concession, replace total depravity with ‘sufficient depravity’. Forget the debate out the totality of humanity being partially depraved or whether each human in totally depraved: the word ‘total’ as well as the concept itself belongs several centuries back in an antiquated argument about substance.
  2. Move away from a substantial concern (are the we corrupted at the cellular level?) to a relational approach that asks ‘is the way that we interact and relate to each other warped and flawed?’
  3. Get out of the round-and-round argument of the reformed  cul-de-sac by adopting either an emergence or evolutionary analysis of ‘competing desires’ or ‘drives’.

 

The advantage of this third move is that it opens up the conversation beyond the tight constraints of inherited theological categories and begins to engage biological, social, and psychological realties of our contemporary world.

  • Why are we both attracted to the stability of a long-term committed relationship for stability and child-rearing as well as drawn to the adventure, variety and allure of other potential mates?
  • Why do I desire stability and peace and then at other times fly off the handle and want to disturb the whole system?
  • Why can I be so aggressive to some people then so defensive and protective of others?
  • Why do we tell the truth when it goes against my own best interest?
  • Why do I lie for a short-term gain that may endanger my own long-term health?

In the blog Miller asks:

What about the confusing middle where we both love and hate, lie and tell the truth, pursue justice but also ignore it? What does Total Depravity look like for us?

The answer to these questions is not ‘total depravity’. The answer is more along the lines of a ‘non-zero game’ of mutuality, social synergy and personal prosperity within the common good.

I would love you thoughts on the original Miller article or my suggestions here. 

 

 

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Filed Under: latest, thinking Tagged With: Bible, blog, book, books, donald miller, sin, theology, total depravity

Revelation of Darkness LIVE Event: Taylor’s F-it Theology, Rollins reaches behind the curtain

May 8, 2013 by Bo Sanders 2 Comments

PeterThis is the first half of the LIVE event featuring Rob Bell that was held at the Monkish Brewing Company.

Barry Taylor takes us on a whirlwind tour – and even though you can’t see the slides – the message comes through loud and clear! Warning: explicit language.  Then Tripp sits down to talk it through with him.

Peter Rollins does his magic and Bo gets to ask him some practical questions.

If you like these convos then check out the best snippets in the video curriculum developed that night titled ‘The Revelation of Darkness.’

Special thanks to our 3 sponsors for the evening: The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology, Fuller Seminary and Claremont School of Theology 

 

 

 

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We are sooooo grateful to our sponsors, Monkish Brewing Company, & Spencer Burke at Missionsoulutions for their help in putting this together. You can get the videos HERE.

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Filed Under: features, podcast Tagged With: barry taylor, book, books, darkness, Live Event, peter rollins, Rob Bell, theology

The Thing With Labels

May 2, 2013 by Bo Sanders 7 Comments

On this week’s TNT I proposed that labels can be good and helpful. They don’t need to be divisive or negative. pantry_labels2

Now some people want to eschew labels all together. I get why they might want to do that but I find that not only a daunting task but a nearly impossible way to proceed through society and culture.

What I am suggesting is that labels are unavoidable and can be helpful – IF a couple of things are clarified.

Like labeling a Pilsner and a Pale Ale, it is necessary to know that you are getting a different product BECAUSE it has come through a different process and has different ingredients.

This is not a problem. An Episcopalian is different from a Nazarene and an Unitarian in pretty significant ways. No one balks at that.

Where this does become a problem is when

  1. You mean the label meanly – in a pejorative way. 
  2. When you don’t use the label correctly.

Both of these came up recently in an episode that is illustrative. In Fitch and Holsclaw’s new book Prodigal Christianity:

Please keep in mind – I am not trying to start-up the argument again and thus will not link to the original posts – I am trying to talk more broadly about HOW we use labels in theological conversation. 

“On the one hand, we are less than satisfied with what the “new kind of Christianity” has become. Brian McLaren, Doug Pagitt, Tony Jones, and others have helped us ask important questions and contributed greatly to creating a generous and compassionate Christianity, and to them we remain grateful friends. But their answers have often lacked substance on which we could live, and what goes by the name of “the emerging church” now appears to have settled into another version of mainline Christianity.”

This is a horrible couple of sentences. First, because Tony Jones rails against the mainline.  Second, because as a mainline pastor (which I am) the use of that phrase is not remotely being utilized correctly.

Mainline is an expression of church. It is both a model of organization and a historic expression.

I think that what Fitch meant by it was a liberal theology. But liberal is a constellation of loyalties – a series of commitments that form and APPROACH to theology.

Now you can see the problem. The term was meant to distance the authors FROM those other 3 (McLaren, Jones, Pagitt) AND it was used incorrectly. 

Pilsner and Pale Ale,  Chardonnay and Cabernet Sauvignon,  these are labeled as such and that is not a problem. But something happens theologically when labels are assigned BY others instead of letting one self-identify and when those labels are not accurate.

____________

In a post-script, Tripp says in the TNT that he thinks something else is going on entirely.  He thinks that this error is really the result of trying to say something theologically when in reality is it ethics … but you don’t want to say so!

Jones is theologically orthodox. Fitch is probably left of Jones politically (due to Zizek). Tripp think that this is really only about homosexuality but that Fitch doesn’t want to say it – so he attempted to get at it theologically and thus missed his mark, causing confusion and conflict.

_______

I would love you thoughts on this issue of labels: their utility and their misuse. 

 

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Filed Under: emergent, engaging, latest, thinking Tagged With: book, books, Brian McLaren, Doug Pagitt, Fitch, Geoff Holsclaw, Holsclaw, labels, Liberal, Mainline, theology, Tony Jones

Unfolded Episode 3: The Desecration

May 1, 2013 by Jesse Turri 6 Comments
Unfolded_Final

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Something dark bubbles just beneath the surface of Hatuskgar. This week’s episode ventures into a fantastical land, a land that is haunted by great darkness, and there is only one person who can help.

This episode features original music by producer by Matt Barlow and was written and narrated by Jesse Turri.

Unfolded now has it’s own itunes feed. Please subscribe and pass the word on so we can get on the new and notables list! Thanks Deacs.

None iTunes users can grab the feedburner feed HERE.

*** If you enjoy all the Homebrewed Christianity Podcasts then consider sending us a donation via paypal. We got bandwidth to buy & audiological goodness to dispense. We will also get a percentage of your Amazon purchase through this link OR you can send us a few and get us a pint!***


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Filed Under: latest, podcast, Unfolded Tagged With: fantasy, gnosticism, profanity, prose, story, theology, Unfolded

Subverting the Norm LIVE and in 3-D

April 15, 2013 by Bo Sanders 6 Comments

This is a ruckus selection of audio from the HomeBrewed Christianity live event at the Subverting the Norm 2 conference last weekend. Rushmore_Poster_rev0

It begins with Barry Taylor and the Band then moves on to 4 toasts offered in honor of the 4 faces on our Mt. Rushmore style Radical Theology poster for the event. Hegel, Tillich, Derrida and Caputo are toasted by Kirsten Gerdes, Tripp Fuller, Jack Caputo and Peter Rollins.

Tony Jones sat in for Bo Sanders in ‘the Practical Seat’  and you will be able to hear how wild things got as the evening progressed.  There was also a contest between Tripp’s two new brews: the Caputo Decon-structor Ale and the John Cobb #Faniac Ale.

If Radical Theology is something that interests you, make sure to sign up for the Summer Reading-Video Conference with Tripp and Pete called “High Gravity”.

Leave us some feedback about this episode by using the little microphone on the front page in the ‘Speak Pipe’.

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Filed Under: features, podcast Tagged With: caputo, Derrida, event, Hegel, Kester Brewin, Kirsten Gerdes, live, Pete Rollins, postmodern, radical, Subverting the Norm 2, theology, Tillich, Tony Jones

TNT: Quaker Cast with Callid Keefe-Perry

April 13, 2013 by Bo Sanders 5 Comments

Welcome the newest Theology Nerd to the Homebrewed Team! Callid Keefe-Perry is a long-time friend of the podcast and a self-identified Hyper-Theist.

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He is famous for his The Image of Fish blog and one of the ring-leaders of the Theopoetics working group at AAR.

Bo and Callid take a tour of Quaker history, the theological Anabaptist landscape, what the deal is with “Communal Discernment,” and whether or not Rob Bell is doing something bad by not having it.
They also wax poetic about why Practical Theology is the discipline that both he and Bo find a home in with the Academy.

 

You can hear Callid’s earlier appearance on the podcast from last year’s Wild Goose East Festival.

 

More stuff from Callid about Friends is over at the Jewels of Quakerism Project.

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Filed Under: latest, TNT Tagged With: anabaptist, Bible, book, books, Callid Keefe Perry, church, God, history, HyperTheist, jesus, philosophy, poetics, quaker, theology, theopoetics

The Cross: meaning, redemption and the future

April 12, 2013 by Bo Sanders 4 Comments

Guest post by Renee Axtell – Wooden Cross
one of the stars of the Easter Call-In Challenge has sent us her thoughts from the amber waves of Kansas. 

Should we stop saying that God sent Jesus to die?

My answer is yes. We should stop saying that God sent Jesus to die, because that implies that God’s intention prior to Jesus’s birth was to send Him to die, and that would be mean. A loving God doesn’t do mean things.

 But… if you accept the premise that God knows everything that’s knowable, and the future isn’t knowable (because it hasn’t happened yet), then God couldn’t have known for sure that Jesus would be crucified.

It doesn’t take a Divine Mind to figure out that a person doing and thinking the things that Jesus did and said in first century Palestine was going to get crucified. I think that explains Jesus’s predictions of his own death found in the gospels. But just because you can predict something is likely to happen doesn’t make it your will or your desire.

I’ve got teenagers. I know teenagers are going to do things that are going to have painful results. That doesn’t mean that it’s my will as a parent that they do those things and experience those painful results, but it’s highly predictable.

So the Father sends the Son into a dangerous situation, the worst case scenario happens, and Jesus ends up getting crucified. God sees this and says, “I can use this for something good. In fact, since this evil thing happened to my Son, I’m going to use this to do literally The Best Thing Ever and defeat death and redeem the world.”

That’s just what God does. “We know that all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose.” (Romans 8:28) As the Messiah, Jesus had the ultimate calling and therefore God used His death to achieve the ultimate purpose, the redemption of the world.

It wasn’t merely the disciples that ascribed meaning to Jesus’s death after the fact, it was God. Your blog post makes it sound like the disciples were making stuff up and attributing meaning to something that wasn’t really there. The meaning was there because God put it there. The disciples were engaged in the discovery of that meaning, and we continue that process of discovery today.

Thoughts? 
Questions? 
Concerns? 
Comments? 

Tripp and I loved that THAT cross had a surplus of meaning from God – the disciples only brought it out and proclaimed it.

What do you think?

 

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Filed Under: bible stuff, church history, engaging, latest, sermon, thinking Tagged With: Bible, call in, challenge, cross, crucifixion, Easter, future, God, jesus, open, redemptions, theology

Unfolded Episode 2 Teaser!

April 10, 2013 by Jesse Turri Leave a Comment

Unfolded_Final

What’s up deacons! The next episode of the Unfolded podcast will be dropping this Sunday, April 14, but until then we wanted to give you a taste of what is headed your way–check it out!

This episode is fairytale entitled, Do you want to be free?

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Filed Under: latest, podcast, random, Unfolded Tagged With: jesus, love, podcast, poetry, story, theology, Unfolded

Greg Boyd Is Not Emergent

April 3, 2013 by Bo Sanders 43 Comments

I love Twitter. It is the best (and fastest) way to catch a sense of what is going on and get updated on trending topics. It is truly amazing to see what some can do with 140 characters.

The other day I ‘eavesdropped’  on a really interesting exchange that was telling – in just 3 tweets.

Rob Davis ?@iamstillrob asks:

 no offense, just an honest question: how has @greg_boyd been lumped into the “emergent” stream by so many people?

Jason Coker ?@Jason_A_Coker helpfully explains:

 Only among those for whom “Emergent” = “Dangerous Theology” : )

Greg Boyd, the man in question, jumps in to answer for himself:

@Jason_A_Coker @iamstillrob I’m a critical realist & soft foundationalist & I find the extreme Epistemological relativists to be incoherent.

This is fantastic stuff. 3 things jump out at me:Boyd

1) While many emergent folks look to Boyd as a conversation partner, that is not the same as him being in the emergent camp. Boyd’s books The Myth of a Christian Nation: How the Quest for Political Power Is Destroying the Church and Myth of a Christian Religion are wonderful (and you can give them to people as gifts). He is an Open Theist and has recently transitioned to Anabaptist identification. He is an interesting character no doubt … but he is not emergent.

He preaches like an old-time revivalist and will often go for 40 minutes. He stands on a stage in front of a packed auditorium and monologues in an elevated volume as if he forgot he was wearing a microphone. This guy is old school.

Which leads to my second point.

2) If Coker is right and emergent is used by some as a synonym for ‘dangerous’ it would explain why so many of the concerns/critiques of emergent-ish stuff fails to land with any meaningful connection. They don’t know what emergent is. That is so obvious that I may have missed it. Just last week I wrote:

I get challenged in nearly every place that I go about this term ‘emergent’. Now, to be fair, most people have never looked into the scientific theory of emergence - to them it is a brand like Baptist, or Catholic or Pentecostal. It could be called “Shock-zone Psycha-jazz” Church and mean just about as much to them.

All the same, the challenge often sounds like this:

“I hear 10 different definitions of the emergent church. It seems to mean on thing to this group and a different thing in this area.”

That is a fair question. But a better way to approach the topic might be to cut “emergent church” out of the sentence and paste “farming” in it’s place. How would you answer this question:

“I hear 10 different definitions of ‘farming’. It seems to mean on thing to this group and a different thing in this area.”

Not that hard right? Different soil, different climate, different water sources, different seeds mean that farming in one region can look entirely different from it does in another.

3) Boyd comes in with a “soft foundationalist vs. extreme Epistemological relativists” contrast. (Coker challenged this but got no reply). This is so telling! I wanted to say ,”oh… I see: one is ‘soft’ and other is ‘extreme’!”

That is the funny part about people trying to put Boyd in the emergent camp. Look, I really really like Greg Boyd. I think he is a fascinating person with tons of integrity and I respect him the world. But he is not emergent – by his own admission.

This is a guy who takes the time to explain that Angels needed training in the early centuries of the cosmos. Here is part of his defense of Ralph Winter’s gap theory of history to explain why there is no geological or paleontological evidence of a worldwide flood:

… God commissioned angelic beings to oversee aspects of nature and the production of life, similar to the way God later commissioned humans to have a domain of authority over nature and animals. These angels, he speculates, were “in training,” which in part perhaps explains why life evolved so slowly (from our human perspective). (Read Ps. 82 if you think angels are exempt from needing training).

 

I thank Rob Davis for asking such good questions and I really appreciate Boyd’s personal reply.
I just keep shaking my head at both the idea of cramming Boyd into the emergent mold and Boyd’s presumptuous response.
I thought it might be interesting to talk about here. 

 

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Filed Under: emergent, engaging, latest, thinking Tagged With: anabaptist, angels, Bible, book, books, church, Emergent, God, Greg Boyd, history, jesus, theology, theory, twitter

Unfolded – Episode 1: My Time Has Not Yet Come

March 30, 2013 by Jesse Turri 36 Comments

Unfolded_Final

Easter Day–An empty tomb and brand new podcast in your ear. The latest addition to the Homebrewed family of podcasts has come to be. Unwrap your ear buds, push play, sit back and get ready to be Unfolded!

Unfolded: Stories that reveal…is a podcast that attempts to reveal great meaning without, necessarily, committing the error of defining it. You’ll find that this show–created by Matthew Barlow and Jesse Turri–is quite different from the other fantastic podcasts on the HBC network. Every other week, Unfolded will feature original written content from one of the crew members which will be supported by astonishing sound design.

You essentially just have to listen to understand.

This week’s premier episode features a short story that takes place in a supermarket located in a small rural town, where eating chitlins and possum is the norm. Some mighty weird things start to happen in this market and there is a LOT of wine involved.

This episode was written and narrated by Jesse Turri. Inspired by John chapter 2, verses 1-11.

*** If you enjoy all the Homebrewed Christianity Podcasts then consider sending us a donation via paypal. We got bandwidth to buy & audiological goodness to dispense. We will also get a percentage of your Amazon purchase through this link OR you can send us a few and get us a pint!***


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Filed Under: latest, podcast, Unfolded Tagged With: art, jesus, John 2:1, poetry, story, theology, Unfolded, wine
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