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You are here: Home / thinking / bible stuff / A Hell of a Conversation

A Hell of a Conversation

August 14, 2012 by Michael Camp 26 Comments
Raising Hell by Julie Ferwerda The hell debate hinges on two driving forces. One is the emotional case that questions the reality of eternal punishment in the afterlife based on the character of God and Jesus’ love ethic. Rob Bell made this emotional plea in Love Wins, as have others (apparently Jackson Baer in What the Hell, although I haven’t read his book yet). Many believers, despite what they hear in their churches and read in their Bibles, know in their heart that something is terribly wrong. How can God, known for unconditional love, and His Son, Jesus, known for his teaching on unmerited favor and forgiveness, consign unbelievers, no matter what their earthly religious circumstances, to everlasting torment without hope of pardon? This is a direct contradiction to the patient, loving character of God, despite critics’ erroneous claim that God’s retributive justice is equally part of His character.

If Christ died for evil people “while they were yet sinners,” how can the same God who sent Christ not continue to reach out to people in the afterlife and permit them every opportunity to turn from their errant ways and receive salvation? Why the unrelenting finality? Moreover, how can a God who looks at the heart when judging the human condition, not take into account the sincere faith of those indoctrinated in other religions?

This emotional case is a good place to start a conversation about hell, but a hell of a bad place to end it. It may lead to a hopeful, open-minded rethinking of the hereafter, but without more evidence, there is too much mystery to come to a solid conclusion. And, it’s to a conclusion that we must come. For without a conclusion (as an article of faith, not an empirical certainty), the character of God is maligned by the doctrine of hell. A God who allows an eternal hell is a God whose followers include those who justify a litany of emotional and spiritual abuses.

The other force behind the debate is the academic case for questioning hell. Bell touched on this but unfortunately didn’t dive deep into it. Perhaps if he had, he would have come to a more solid conclusion, for the academic case is by far the strongest. Many have done so, from Keith DeRose, Thomas Talbot, Gregory MacDonald (Robin Parry), Gary Beauchemin, Julie Ferwerda (Raising Hell), Eric Stetson, Michael and Rhonda Jones, and myself in the section of my book on The Case for Universalism.

The academic case has three major elements: the linguistic, historic, and logical. The linguistic uncovers the root meanings of Greek and Hebrew terms and reveals how the original concept of what we call “hell” is more accurately a corrective punishment or judgment for a particular age or time (possibly in the afterlife but not necessarily so), and not of an everlasting nature. The historic shows how many church fathers and figures, including modern personalities such as George MacDonald, believed and taught universal reconciliation. Finally, the logical case builds on the other arguments to reveal an original Bible that speaks nothing of eternal torment or an obligation to submit to such ambiguous scripture. It also reveals a God who uses punishment for the purpose of reconciliation, not retribution, so that “mercy triumphs over judgment.”

What is needed in the hell debate is for people to honestly commit to study the evidence—linguistic, historical, and logical—with an open mind (without being constrained by denominational or organizational pressures) and to ultimately come to a conclusion. For those indoctrinated with fundamentalist and evangelical mindsets, this can be a long process. To them, debunking hell appears to be dismissing scripture. Patience is called for to help them look objectively at the academic arguments and not be tainted by an unhealthy worship of modern translations of scripture. (I tell the story of how I came through this process and other discoveries in Confessions of a Bible Thumper). But once the academic arguments become clear, sitting on the fence on this issue for fear of offending others is not an option. The hellish doctrine of eternal damnation is a stain on the character of God that twists the message of the good news and often creates psychologically abused and abusive followers. Please weigh in on this debate!

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danrenton
danrenton 5pts

I personally don't think Hell is against God's goodness and unconditional love, - I Would suggest that Hell is a messaure of his unconditional head over heels, passionate love for you and I

Texmati
Texmati 5pts

 @danrenton If hell doesn't exist, then what did Jesus die to save us from?  Is there a school of thought that sees Christ's death and resurrection as everyone from hell, regardless of whether or not they acknowledge or "accept" that fact?

dangarvin
dangarvin 5pts

 @Texmati  @danrenton Yes, there is such a school of thought. Sort of.

 

But I think you're getting at something pretty important in your first question about what did Jesus die to save us from? The Bible talks quite a lot about the work of Christ: He came to seek and save that which was lost. He came to restore sight to the blind and set the captives free. He died that through death he

might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. He came to save his people from their sins. He came not to judge the world but to save it (Jn 12:47). He came to give himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father.

 

So why did Jesus die on the cross? For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.(Col. 1:19-20).

 

I guess I'm not finding where it says Jesus died to save us from eternal conscious torment in Hell.

 

That passage from Colossians is one of many that gets to your second question as well. God's choice is to reconcile all things to himself, and He does it by making peace through the shed blood of Jesus. We are assured that EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Now that could be accomplished through coercive power or it could be accomplished through reconciliation and the making of peace.

 

Peace to you.

MichaelCamp
MichaelCamp 5pts

 @dangarvin  @Texmati  @danrenton

 dangarvin, Well said!! The traditional view is so ingrained that there's this default destination for all souls called hell from which we must be saved from. But as you infer, when you look carefully, that concept isn't in the NT. Jesus saves us from sin, death, fear, bondage, and the present evil age (where love does not rule), and brings us into a whole new world (where love rules) and where ALL are ultimately reconciled and no one is left behind.

danrenton
danrenton 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

You know, I think Franchis Chan did an amazing job articulating this and really diving into the debate as to weather or not Hell Exists. He is very humble in how he approaches it  Check out the promo for his book erasing hell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnrJVTSYLr8

MichaelCamp
MichaelCamp 5pts

 @danrenton

I respect what Chan is trying to do, but I think he can't bring himself to question hell too much for fear of overstepping scripture. He's at least honest in his approach as he admits in his book that he can't be sure from his studies that "eternal punishment" is an everlasting state. Not sure why he can't see how strong the case is that it doesn't mean that. Some people, who make their living and their whole life is based on traditional views of the Bible, cannot step outside that paradigm enough to see the big picture. It would rock their world too much. They hide behind the authority of scripture (the traditional interpretation) or the fallacy that we can't really understand eternity because "we're only clay," or some other spiritual sounding rationalization. I encourage you to read Chan but carefully compare what he says to some of these other books I recommend, e.g. Julie's Raising Hell or Thomas Talbott's Inescapable Love of God. Of course, if you want the short version, read my chapter on The Case for Universalism! (Universal Life). :-)

danrenton
danrenton 5pts

 @MichaelCamp 

Thanks for the reply.  Your thoughts were very insightful. If I were to step back and here and really try to listen to this conversation - the way I hear it and read into it is that this really isn't an issue as to whether or not Hell exist. If you read the post - the argument goes - "How can  a good God - a God of unconditional love and grace - who died for the the whole world send people to Hell?"

 I think were the core  of this thinking is that a God of Grace and unconditional love would never do anything intentionally - if he had the power to harm his people. He is infact a Good God and he would never punish people and intentionally make people suffer if infact he is good. At least thats what I am hearing or sensing.

  So when it comes the issue of Hell - we processes the idea of Hell through this grid and because of that we come to the conclusion that a good God would never outright send people to Hell. We would conclude that that is a God who coherese > Before I continue I want to make sure I have this post summed up accurately in three sentences

 I have lots more to say on this but don't have the time to type right now so I will continue loving

shooterjon
shooterjon 5pts

Michael,

Enjoyed the post!  Of course, your post on the 21 (?) reasons I am progressive (but not liberal) is one of my all time favorites!  Some awesome reviews for your book and Iook forward to reading it soon!  Be well!

Jon Annett

 

MichaelCamp
MichaelCamp 5pts

 @shooterjon

Jon, I have lost your email. Did you change jobs? Wanted to re-connect with you. Thanks for all your support. Visit my website and go to the contact page to find my email. We need to get together again... this time over a microbrew!

Da stand das Meer
Da stand das Meer 5pts

Dear Michael,

Thanks very much for putting this out there ... That the way in which the doctrine of eternal conscious punishment has been deployed has engendered monstrous distortions of the character of God and created 'psychologically absued and abusive followers' ought to be beyond dispute. The more problematic issue for philosophical theology seems to be the question of the nature of freedom. If we all agree that 'eternal damnation' can never be the purpose of a loving God, is it still possible that created beings can close themselves so totally to Divine love that they refuse the free gift redemption (which God never ceases to offer to all)? This would imply the possibility of a tragic outcome, not because of any vengefulness on God's part, but because of the mystery of free choice. I can certainly sympathize with theologians who claim that Universal Reconciliation is a matter of ontological necessity if God is truly to be God (otherwise 'Love Loses') - but the issue isn't clear-cut.

 

Secondly, I can't help feeling that part of the problem which you identify is pretty specific to Protestantism. Once any kind of 'Purgatory'/purification is off the table, the options become very limited for any theology that wants to deal with the fact that Jesus clearly and repeatedly gave warnings about the possibility of a state of separation from God. I'd be interested to know what you think about recent near-death experience accounts written by people who claim to have experienced such a state first-hand (an example would be UCC minister Howard Storm) and - here's the good news - to have been rescued from it by grace in a transformative and redemptive encounter with the Divine.

 

Peter B.

MichaelCamp
MichaelCamp 5pts

 @Da stand das Meer

Peter, thanks for weighing in. Yes, there's always the possibility that a soul would refuse grace and love for all eternity, but of course the traditional view doesn't even give that person a chance to change their mind--everything is suddenly final at death. Although I agree it's not all clear cut, I think Talbott et al (Gregory MacDonald) make a strong case that God's love is ultimately inescapable and irresistable because God's love is so powerful and his purpose's prevail--which the Bible teaches.

 

I don't know enough about the near-death accounts you speak of. I'll have to look into that. Overall, from what I understand, near-death experiences are evidences that support UR in general.

Da stand das Meer
Da stand das Meer 5pts

 @MichaelCamp Hello Michael - the evidence from near-death experiences (which, by the way, I reckon need far more serious theological assessment than they seem to have received so far) is certainly strongly universalist in the sense that I am yet to read any account in which an encounter with God focused on having 'right beliefs'. Indeed, NDEs seem to suggest that God WANTS more than we can imagine that all should be saved and is pretty much wholly uninterested in what particular religious - or non-religious - tribe an individual belongs to. Having said this, there is also a strong emphasis on moral accountability in those (many) instances of experiences that have featured a 'life review' - a sort of preliminary judgment if you like. What emerges as being of ultimate importance in these reviews is whether we have treated others with love and compassion or not: everything else is secondary (just as Jesus suggests in Matthew 25). If you're interested, I've written more about this at

http://sdgmusic.org/bannister/?p=2416 ; the subject also features in my recent discussion with Alex Tsakiris on the 'Skeptiko' science & spirituality website:

http://www.skeptiko.com/peter-bannister-sees-hope-for-science-religion-dialog/

 

Whether near-death experiences support UR in an ontological sense (i.e. the ultimate destiny of the cosmos) is more debatable ... I wish I could say that they do, but I can't honestly say that I'm very confident about it.

 

Peter B.

nbpendley
nbpendley 5pts

 @JulieFerwerda & @MichaelCamp  on the question of there being no debate and those indoctrinated.  I am one of those.  I just had a fantastic conversation about world view with a friend (about a different topic related to Jesus' (s) words) and it occurred to me that is my issue with the whole hell debate.  Not that I want eternal damnation (or ever did) but that it has always be a fixture in my world and is therefore connected to my worldview.

 

In my 20's every time the discussion came up I always said it wasn't really our issue since we were to invite people to Jesus not scare them of hell - hell is God's territory not ours.  I guess, in many ways I remain in that place of not dispelling it but not using it either.

 

As I read Chan's book, Erasing Hell, I was dumbfounded when he said it was the most important thing we have to understand.  I still don't get it.  All that leads to is coercive belief and I'd rather heart change and belief.

 

Anyway, as one coming to the tap with a tainted worldview I am interested in this discussion.

nbpendley
nbpendley 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @JulieFerwerda I think you make a good case for getting this hell thing right . . . "the very name and character of God"

JulieFerwerda
JulieFerwerda 5pts

 @nbpendley Thanks. I am so thankful I was led outside my bubble to realize there was more to it than I realized. I thought "orthodoxy" was established with Jesus and just was "always that way." Then I found out that orthodoxy was usually established by whoever was able to kill more people and control more people with fear. I now realize what a false security the majority opinion is. :)

MichaelCamp
MichaelCamp 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @nbpendley  @JulieFerwerda

 nbpendley, it sounds like you had to shelter yourself from owning the doctrine of hell, "it's God's territory, not ours." You're right about worldview. Even though you, like me, didn't wish eternal damnation on anyone, it was there in the back of our minds. I believe that worldview taints our view of God... I dealt with it by becoming a closet inclusivist, believing some non-Christians (some mysterious number only God knows) will escape hell, but some people will still wind up there.

 

I agree Chan's position is confusing. He writes as if defending the traditional view, and stresses how important it is that we get it right, then actually admits he's not sure if "eternal punishment" is translated correctly. So why not be honest and say he can't defend hell and it's okay to question it? I think he's wed to the traditional worldview too.

 

For you, you are an honest seeker, and I encourage you to study the issue and come to your own conclusion, not feeling pressured by some traditionalist/evangelical demon on your shoulder, nor by us "progressives." Julie and I both came from evangelical backgrounds, so we know exactly how you feel.

JulieFerwerda
JulieFerwerda 5pts

When you give it an honest look, there really is no "debate" about whether hell exists or not. There just is no evidence in its favor whatsoever (other than the fact that perhaps as many as 2 billion religious people in the world believe in it because they were told to). Though no one can say for sure what comes next, that is one thing I now know with certainty isn't possible. 

 

What a great post Michael! Thanks for including me.

MichaelCamp
MichaelCamp 5pts

 @JulieFerwerda

 Good point, Julie. The problem is trying to convince the "2 billion religious people in the world who believe it because they were told [uh, indoctrinated, more accurately] to." Those people are either stubborn, or as victims of Bible abuse, changing their view becomes a huge psycological hurdle.

dangarvin
dangarvin 5pts

 @MichaelCamp  @JulieFerwerda Well, I really appreciate you both for what you have done, and are doing, regarding UR. Keep up the good work.

 

Julie, I just started reading your book. Thanks Michael for that tip. I've read quite a lot of the people you referred to, but it's always good to have more resources and points of view.

 

Michael, I was just perusing your website and will most definitely be ordering your book. My faith journey seems like it might be a lot like yours, although I certainly don't have your impressive resume ;-). I do have the interesting distinction of having had to do this escape from the religion thing twice though. The first time was when I managed to get out of the extremely legalistic/fundamentalist denomination I was born and raised in and landed in straight-ahead evangelicalism (who I'd always been taught were heretical and apostate). Imagine my surprise when I realized (to paraphrase Frank Schaeffer's review of your book) that even after my first awakening I was still in the nightmare.

 

Looking forward to your book. I can use all the help I can get waking up from this nightmare. And the beer angle is certainly a bonus. I do love me some craft beer.

MichaelCamp
MichaelCamp 5pts

 @dangarvin  @JulieFerwerda

 Thanks, Dangarvin. Yes, it seems you had to evolve two levels! One reason it's hard for conservative evangelicals to come out of it is they look at the super fundies and say, "hey, we're not legalists, they are," and are blind to the more subtle legalistic ways. Hope you enjoy the book. If you do, pass it on to others on similar journeys who could use some encouragement. Also, let me know what you think. I always appreciate heartfelt reviews on Amazon too. Cheers! --the craft beer is a nice bonus :-) 

 

MichaelCamp
MichaelCamp 5pts

Texmati, thanks for weighing in! Since the subject of this one is hell, I'll overlook the sodomy reference. As for universal reconciliation (UR), I've listed a lot of books that each have those linguistic, historical, and logical arguments, including a chapter in my book. Julie's book, Raising Hell, might be a good place for you to start. Linguistic is based on the discoveries that the word "hell" and "eternal punishment" are mistranslations of the original Greek words. The most common is Sheol (Hebrew) and Hades (Greek), is not "hell" because it is the place of the dead for BOTH the righteous and unrighteous. Eternal punishment, is better translated "punishment of the age." Historical study shows how many church fathers believed in UR (Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, et al) and how many through the ages. Logical is what it is. As someone who apparently believes in the traditioanl view of hell, do you see a logical fallacy in hell in light of an unconditionally loving God who declares "mercy triumphs over judgment?"

Texmati
Texmati 5pts

As a Christian raised Southern Baptist / non-denom / charismatic, I'm far from emergent.  But I'm not too dogmatic to enjoy Tripp and Bo on TNT.  After listening to them for a while, you might call me a groundhog.   I'd love to hear a lot more of the academic. . . linguistic, historical, and logical. . . reasoning behind the justification of sodomy and universalism.  A shallow emotional appeal in light of my belief in an objective truth (not that I believe anyone has that truth completely figured out) and how I've always understood the Bible just doesn't cut it.

dangarvin
dangarvin 5pts

 @Texmati Interestingly, I think you can keep a fairly conservative/evangelical hat on while accepting the case against eternal conscious torment. You can even keep it on while accepting the case for Christian Universalism (or universal reconciliation). I found The Evangelical Universalist by Gregory MacDonald (Robin Parry) to be very good in this regard. I'm sure Michael Camp's other references are very good as well, although I haven't read them all. 

 

But, if you're not ready to venture out of the relative "safety" of a fairly Biblicist position, The Evangelical Universalist is a good place to start.

Texmati
Texmati 5pts

 @dangarvin Thanks for the tip, I'll check it out.

MichaelCamp
MichaelCamp 5pts

 @dangarvin  @Texmati

 Danarvin, agreed on Evangelical Universalist. Depending on how you define "Biblicist," Parry's position  is based soundly on original meaning of the NT and he has a high view of scripture. Thanks for weighing in.

 

Donanqqtstw2
Donanqqtstw2 5pts

@Michael_W_Camp http://t.co/qK0XL4gS

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