Can I worship to this song? Poetics and Process

Looking at this through the lens of theopoetics-- when I read a poem I don't have to agree with everything about its thesis, where the author is coming from, or even the author's beliefs about the poem, in order to become engaged with it or moved by it. Ezra Pound might have made appalling political decisions with supporting fascism but that doesn't have to be the only factor when one reads the Cantos. It's not like shutting off a valve. I think it's a case by case basis. E.P. drives some people insane, after all. Sometimes a visceral reaction can't be avoided. But at the same time, the multiplicity of affect might mean that there's something else going on that's worth attention.

yo Bo....i do a lot of song writing with the youth I work with . When we sing the songs it is their peers putting language and poetry to their community. Sometimes they have theology I find horrible or would like to tweak it but doing so would bother me too. I guess what I am saying is that as a minister I agree with your concern to have your own integrity about what is sung but that should be held in tension with letting the others in the community speak with integrity from where they are. A few years ago I remember telling a gay man who finally found a church he could belong in and was working through conservative religious baggage that there was no way I was gonna play some penal substitutionary worship. Thinking back I felt bad about how i handled it.

I join Carlos in the call for progressive/emergent/process new hymnody! I'm okay with singing a song that comes from a place of bad theology if that bad theology is not in the song itself. Sometimes, I'm okay with singing a song with outdated metaphors or theology, if it comes from a good theological place (the context can redeem the language sometimes). A good example: a lot of hymns from the African American spiritual tradition have warfare imagery that I don't like, but are songs of the slaves crying out for deliverance. Even so, I can't sing Battle Hymn of the Republic. Nothing redeems the image of God's terrible swift sword or the bit about trampling the wicked. I'm turned off by excessive blood imagery, excessive masculine metaphors for God, ANY masculine language for humanity (I am not your brother!), language about disability (blind=bad, "lame"), and me-centered hymns. I will occasionally concede, again, in context. But as you so aptly cast the question, I am unable to worship when the language or theology is so abhorrent to me. It breaks the moment. It's kind of like when an actor breaks character or looks right at the camera, and you're no longer immersed in the play or film, but thinking about the actor or the lighting or the technical details. You lose the story. For me, all aspects of worship should help tell the story, communicate the Word. Anything that breaks the moment (unless the story is about how the Word breaks into our moments!) pulls our focus from the worship of God. If I plan to use a piece of music that might do that, as worship leader I try to preface it with some context or what I hope we hear and pray in the song. Great conversation!

From Facebook: "Oh boy. Glad you brought this up. There are some songs that are so bad they bring worship to a screeching halt for me. I have been unable to get past it, sometimes to the point of agitation. I used to flagellate myself routinely for "making worship about me". It turns out that my need to be authentic in worship is not superfluous. Love this conversation."

First just let me say that I have great theological difficulty with the "prosperity gospel" churches. And I wouldn't want to use any particular chorus that stressed that "theology". That doesn't mean you can't use one you like. Just because of difficulty with their overall theology doesn't mean that they couldn't have come up with something inspired and wonderful. God has a way of shining through a misguided approach to the gospels. I also belong to a very liberal church (Metropolitan Community Church of San Francisco) that tries very hard to use inclusive language. I sometimes have great difficulty with their approach to that as well. There's a fine line between being inclusive and doing violence to history. Changing a pronoun here and there is one thing, but wrangling over every word in a much-loved traditional hymn like "Amazing Grace" I think is ridiculous. MCC changed "was blind but now I see" to "was bound but now am free" for fear of offending blind people. But as far as I know, they didn't ask any blind people how they felt about it beforehand. What often happens is that one or a very few people raise an issue, and words are changed in a rather knee-jerk way. No research, no use of an opportunity for pastoral care and teaching. And those of us who might prefer the traditional words often feel like we simply don't have a voice. That particular "Amazing Grace" change also does not only violence to history but to the human psyche itself. Fear of the dark and blindness are metaphors deeply ingrained in the human soul since the beginning of the species. Our little change in that hymn is not even going to chip away at that, if indeed it is something that *should* be changed. We also changed "that saved a wretch like me" to "that saved a soul like me". Is there anyone alive who has never felt "wretched"? A part of the theology of my church that bothers me is the "feel good about yourself gospel". No one should feel bad about themselves, ever. Not *ever*. It very understandably comes from the perspective of people deeply wounded by Christian-sponsored homophobia returning to a church they still might feel a little dicey about. The problem, though, is that in my opinion a spiritual tradition has to have room to prick the conscience, and to "create a safe space" for guilt and for the healing of that guilt, and for the reconciliation with your Redeemer of Choice. Reconciliation and redemption happen all the time at MCC, even with some of the official "party-line" in the way. God truly does work miracles in peoples' lives. And many of those miracles happen through the medium of music, when we are directly touched in our souls and not thinking so much about theology. Don't get me wrong. I love my church, I love my church's music. I love what they have done, continue to do, and hope to do in the future in the way of being a "house of prayer for all people". But we make some really silly word changes at times.

And I'm sure somewhere someone a lot smarter than me said something to the effect of BAD ART = BAD THEOLOGY.

Maybe we should all just go back to singing the metric Psalms. Makes you think those Scots knew what they were doing, even if their theology was a bit frightening. Or better yet, maybe we should all sit in Quaker silence. I'm sceptical of most anything that's considered "new" when it comes to corporate musical worship. No, give me an all-Black gospel choir (no whities, please) singing slave spirituals and freedom hymns circa the Civil War. Give me an English chamber choir singing enthronement hymns from the 16th Century. Or give me Beer and Hymns at Greenbelt. But any way I slice it, I'm done with the "new" shit. Most of the time it's not the lyrics/theology that's the worst part, it's the music--it's BAD ART, and it usually makes me want to vomit.

Would help me to clarify - are you talking about the music of Hillsong in Australia? We have a service that is meant to be "contemporary" and many of those in our church who started it are queer "Hillsong refugees" so we sing lots of their music. Its their version of atonement theology that really does stop me from singing. I have tried to get to a place of joining in that inter-subjective "atmosphere" that is created - even if I have to put me rational mind on pause some times. Hillsong's version of the prosperity Gospel isn't quiet as horrific as others as they say God blesses us so we can give to others, not so we can accumulate the wealth for ourselves. Still seems so against historic Christianity (much less progressive Christianity) Yet occasionally they have written a worship song I can sing with integrity and openness - mind and body joined - as one. See "This is the air I Breathe" My question is why are their no progressive christian worship songs being written that don't sound like hymns or 60's folk music? Just some ramblings .....

I tend to go for the older hymns than "praise and worship." The older hymns are much more poetic, while praise and worship tends to be be repetitious. I'll take "And Can It Be That I Should Gain" over "You Are My King" any day of the week! I like Rich Mullins, though.

BTW: currently struggling with "Jerusalem" by Steve Earle. Would be interested in your thoughts.

What is the song? What are the lyrics? Two or More... has struggled with this numerous times re: bringing secular music into the worship service (Indigo Girls, Sam Cook, Bob Dylan, Sountrack to Dreamgirls --the list is pretty long). It usually (always?) comes back to two things: lyrics and context. Do the lyrics represent a teaching of Jesus? If yes, then will the context of the original song overshadow the teaching you'd like to communicate with the song? That happens sometimes My guess is that you are probably the only one who has a negative context for these. If you'd like the TOM crew to share some thoughts on our process, I'm sure we can figure out a time. Tonia and Rachel have particular expertise with this. What is the new "gathering" all about? Did I miss the memo? K

I had this conversation with music director form a very liberal church in the United Church of Canada. I complained about theologically offensive lyrics and she made the case that the music has a language of its own as well. She disliked the fact that she couldn't play certain hymns because of the lyrics. A couple of years later I was at a funeral for another music director who had prepared the service for his funeral and I found myself really understanding (feeling) what she meant. In liberal churches we sometimes get so caught up in the words we neglect our feelings. Still, I sometimes gag when singing certain hymns.