Comments on: I Survived the Christian Right: Lesson 2 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/02/08/i-survived-the-christian-right-lesson-2/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=i-survived-the-christian-right-lesson-2 Equipping grassroots theologians for creative thinking, engaging, and living. Wed, 23 May 2012 15:21:48 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Jo Ann W. Goodson http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/02/08/i-survived-the-christian-right-lesson-2/comment-page-1/#comment-14940 Jo Ann W. Goodson Fri, 05 Mar 2010 00:27:11 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2737#comment-14940 In the bible it tells horrific stories of people who claimed that God told them to do these things. What about those passages where it speaks of killing people for their sins, asking them to bash the childrens heads against the wall, these are just a few that come to mind at this time. Their is just so much in the bible that I think God had nothing to do with. Do you really think that God told people to kill others so they could have their land? I do not think God asks anyone to go to war. However, if we do go to war, I think God is with the individuals as they fight. We must look at the teachings and actions of Jesus, or at least I do, to begin my discernment process. Most of the bible was written 70 or more years after the death of Christ and as Michael said, many errors have been detected in the transcribing from what original documents the group had to put the bible together. This I accept and it does not take anything away from my reading the bible and gaining much from it. However, it does tell me that it is not in without error and it has been proven that things have been added since the first translation that was by humans who wanted to change or add to what was said originally just so it would fit their doctrine. God is continuing to inspire writers with new material and this must be read and added to what the bible said, maybe not a new translation, but simply for our own understanding we must retain the information in our hearts and minds. In the bible it tells horrific stories of people who claimed that God told them to do these things. What about those passages where it speaks of killing people for their sins, asking them to bash the childrens heads against the wall, these are just a few that come to mind at this time. Their is just so much in the bible that I think God had nothing to do with. Do you really think that God told people to kill others so they could have their land? I do not think God asks anyone to go to war. However, if we do go to war, I think God is with the individuals as they fight. We must look at the teachings and actions of Jesus, or at least I do, to begin my discernment process. Most of the bible was written 70 or more years after the death of Christ and as Michael said, many errors have been detected in the transcribing from what original documents the group had to put the bible together. This I accept and it does not take anything away from my reading the bible and gaining much from it. However, it does tell me that it is not in without error and it has been proven that things have been added since the first translation that was by humans who wanted to change or add to what was said originally just so it would fit their doctrine. God is continuing to inspire writers with new material and this must be read and added to what the bible said, maybe not a new translation, but simply for our own understanding we must retain the information in our hearts and minds.

]]> By: Michael http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/02/08/i-survived-the-christian-right-lesson-2/comment-page-1/#comment-14933 Michael Thu, 04 Mar 2010 22:03:14 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2737#comment-14933 XDavidx, The Bible itself tells us to "test everything." I don't think it's arrogant to critically look at the claims of the Bible and the doctrine of infallibility. God wants us to use our minds and not accept everything blindly. I also find in the Bible what you say, powerful teachings that touch our lives, but also much misinterpretation, mistranslation, and misuse of its authority. If we ignore these misuses, how is that honoring God or the Bible? I think if are honest with the evidence (not enough room here to lay it out), the "obvious claims" of the Bible aren't so obvious. That doesn't mean God isn't capable, it means we humans are sometimes in error. Some say I'm picking and choosing what I want out of the Bible. But that's exactly what the early church did when they made the canon. They picked and chose what they wanted in and out, and over the years made assumptions that it was copied correctly and how authoritative it was meant to be. Don't we have a right to do that same evaluation, or are we left to just blindly accept what others have done? XDavidx,
The Bible itself tells us to “test everything.” I don’t think it’s arrogant to critically look at the claims of the Bible and the doctrine of infallibility. God wants us to use our minds and not accept everything blindly. I also find in the Bible what you say, powerful teachings that touch our lives, but also much misinterpretation, mistranslation, and misuse of its authority. If we ignore these misuses, how is that honoring God or the Bible? I think if are honest with the evidence (not enough room here to lay it out), the “obvious claims” of the Bible aren’t so obvious. That doesn’t mean God isn’t capable, it means we humans are sometimes in error. Some say I’m picking and choosing what I want out of the Bible. But that’s exactly what the early church did when they made the canon. They picked and chose what they wanted in and out, and over the years made assumptions that it was copied correctly and how authoritative it was meant to be. Don’t we have a right to do that same evaluation, or are we left to just blindly accept what others have done?

]]> By: xDavidx http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/02/08/i-survived-the-christian-right-lesson-2/comment-page-1/#comment-14819 xDavidx Wed, 03 Mar 2010 00:11:05 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2737#comment-14819 I think the question you have to ask yourself is, "What kind of God do I serve?". The answer to this question should be displayed in multiple evidences as observed by the mature Christian. To wit, the part of God that I know from the Scripture teaches me "What" about who He is? To me, it teaches that time after time, I see Him reveal Himself through this preserved Word of His. I also see that no matter what our reasoning, He has chosen this Word as the primary method of communication with mankind, and ideed, with each man individually. I mean, on both levels (collective and individual), where did we first hear of this God in His own (professed) Words? I believe it a dangerously arrogant practise to put our understanding above the obvious claims of The Bible. That's not over- simplifying the issue, that's humility towards a living God (One perfectly able to get "the point" accross through the Book He designed, no matter how man has (mis) handled it). It's also a realistic admission of my human condition in light of a Book so powerful, every time it is openned and read, the reader (and indeed the world) is not the same. I think the question you have to ask yourself is, “What kind of God do I serve?”. The answer to this question should be displayed in multiple evidences as observed by the mature Christian. To wit, the part of God that I know from the Scripture teaches me “What” about who He is? To me, it teaches that time after time, I see Him reveal Himself through this preserved Word of His. I also see that no matter what our reasoning, He has chosen this Word as the primary method of communication with mankind, and ideed, with each man individually. I mean, on both levels (collective and individual), where did we first hear of this God in His own (professed) Words?
I believe it a dangerously arrogant practise to put our understanding above the obvious claims of The Bible. That’s not over- simplifying the issue, that’s humility towards a living God (One perfectly able to get “the point” accross through the Book He designed, no matter how man has (mis) handled it). It’s also a realistic admission of my human condition in light of a Book so powerful, every time it is openned and read, the reader (and indeed the world) is not the same.

]]> By: Pastor Bill http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/02/08/i-survived-the-christian-right-lesson-2/comment-page-1/#comment-13871 Pastor Bill Sat, 13 Feb 2010 18:20:17 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2737#comment-13871 Hello all It seems to me that there are no rules that can teach you how to be in relationship, at best the rules can tell you how not to destroy them. Relationships are a " leap of faith" what is needed it relationship are the profound demonstrations of the LIFE of Jesus Christ recorded by the Apostles (Love, Mercy, Tenderness, Forgiveness,non violence etc. etc). I have found no rule book that prepared me for my 25 year relationship with the most wonderful woman on earth, Diane! The Things Christ taught and demonstrated can not be "applied" in any legal way but rather must be risked in every possible way. Pastor Bill Langill jr. From Middle earth Hello all

It seems to me that there are no rules that can teach you how to be in relationship, at best the rules can tell you how not to destroy them. Relationships are a ” leap of faith” what is needed it relationship are the profound demonstrations of the LIFE of Jesus Christ recorded by the Apostles (Love, Mercy, Tenderness, Forgiveness,non violence etc. etc). I have found no rule book that prepared me for my 25 year relationship with the most wonderful woman on earth, Diane! The Things Christ taught and demonstrated can not be “applied” in any legal way but rather must be risked in every possible way.

Pastor Bill Langill jr.
From Middle earth

]]> By: Jo Ann W. Goodson http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/02/08/i-survived-the-christian-right-lesson-2/comment-page-1/#comment-13824 Jo Ann W. Goodson Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:19:42 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2737#comment-13824 Michael Camp, I like the way you described grace. It is very difficult to understand and to practice giving grace to others and to live by practicing love instead of obeying a strict set of laws. For myself, I do not rely on what I perceive God's Holy Spirit is always saying to me at first thought. We were asked to test the spirit to see if it is truly of God and Jesus' description to us of what love is. I have lived long and studied every step of the way to know more about God and what was expected of me as one of God's children. When I have the knowledge of God in my mind and heart that I have obtained through studying the bible, studying books from many authors with various points of view and understanding, ponder all my experiences of God, watched and learned how others LOVE. These are the things that I use in discerning and practicing love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, steadfastness, accountability, etc. with others and myself. Moment by moment as I live my life and have relationships with others, I call upon these resources to tell help me to know what to say and how to act according to the two commandments that the authors of the bible tell us Jesus asked us to follow. Love God, Love others and love ourselves. When I respond to another I use the wisdom I have learned and practiced to intentionally respond in love. None of this has anything to do with law but with freedom. God's Holy Spirit is with me and everyone all the time and will help in this process. When I have an idea of what to say to someone or what to write, etc. I hesitate long enough to make certain in my mind that it is the loving thing to do. Think before you speak is a really good motto I think. This that I have described works for me and what I believe is something of what Jesus was talking about. The ten commandments were certainly part of my studying and gave me something to be of help to me in my living. However, it must not stop there. If we take Jesus teaching, that of love, we will automatically do all of these things. If you truly love, you will not kill, for example, it just comes naturally. I will not get into a word battle about war. It is so much more beneficial to my well being both spiritualy and physically and mentally to live by the law of love and I hope that by doing so others will see Jesus in me. Michael Camp, I like the way you described grace. It is very difficult to understand and to practice giving grace to others and to live by practicing love instead of obeying a strict set of laws. For myself, I do not rely on what I perceive God’s Holy Spirit is always saying to me at first thought. We were asked to test the spirit to see if it is truly of God and Jesus’ description to us of what love is. I have lived long and studied every step of the way to know more about God and what was expected of me as one of God’s children. When I have the knowledge of God in my mind and heart that I have obtained through studying the bible, studying books from many authors with various points of view and understanding, ponder all my experiences of God, watched and learned how others LOVE. These are the things that I use in discerning and practicing love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, steadfastness, accountability, etc. with others and myself. Moment by moment as I live my life and have relationships with others, I call upon these resources to tell help me to know what to say and how to act according to the two commandments that the authors of the bible tell us Jesus asked us to follow. Love God, Love others and love ourselves. When I respond to another I use the wisdom I have learned and practiced to intentionally respond in love. None of this has anything to do with law but with freedom. God’s Holy Spirit is with me and everyone all the time and will help in this process. When I have an idea of what to say to someone or what to write, etc. I hesitate long enough to make certain in my mind that it is the loving thing to do. Think before you speak is a really good motto I think. This that I have described works for me and what I believe is something of what Jesus was talking about. The ten commandments were certainly part of my studying and gave me something to be of help to me in my living. However, it must not stop there. If we take Jesus teaching, that of love, we will automatically do all of these things. If you truly love, you will not kill, for example, it just comes naturally. I will not get into a word battle about war. It is so much more beneficial to my well being both spiritualy and physically and mentally to live by the law of love and I hope that by doing so others will see Jesus in me.

]]> By: Michael Camp http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/02/08/i-survived-the-christian-right-lesson-2/comment-page-1/#comment-13806 Michael Camp Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:15:21 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2737#comment-13806 doug, I appreciate your comments. You say if you didn't have the Bible, would have to guess how to behave. You ask if we didn't have laws then what would stop the sinful nature from taking over? I'm not sure if you understand the message of grace. In Romans, Paul tells us "we are no longer under the supervision of the law." He says we are released from the law, so we serve in the new way of the spirit, not the old way of the written code. What you say sounds like you are relying on a set of rules to know how to behave, when the message of grace tells us to to "serve in the new way of the spirit, not in the old way of the written code." I encourage you to read the first 11 chapters of Romans in one sitting to get a full picture of the message of grace. Look for what Paul concludes in his arguments. Yes, the true message of grace is messy and risky. One learns to govern themselves with only the law of love to guide. What I'm saying is that the Bible is NOT a list of rules for us to obey because the Bible teaches that is not what it is (e.g. we are released from a written code, a set of rules). When we try to codify everything, we are not following the message of grace, but trying to be justified by law. It is the "the spirit" and following the one rule of love that stops the sinful nature from taking over. Actually, the Bible teaches that the law-based way of following God has no power to change us. When people make the Bible into a list of rules that end up ruling one's life (usually by reading short passages out of their historical, cultural, and literary context, and getting "lost in the words," so the core meaning is lost), then it is like they are worshiping it over God who has given us the new way of grace in Christ. doug,
I appreciate your comments. You say if you didn’t have the Bible, would have to guess how to behave. You ask if we didn’t have laws then what would stop the sinful nature from taking over? I’m not sure if you understand the message of grace. In Romans, Paul tells us “we are no longer under the supervision of the law.” He says we are released from the law, so we serve in the new way of the spirit, not the old way of the written code. What you say sounds like you are relying on a set of rules to know how to behave, when the message of grace tells us to to “serve in the new way of the spirit, not in the old way of the written code.” I encourage you to read the first 11 chapters of Romans in one sitting to get a full picture of the message of grace. Look for what Paul concludes in his arguments. Yes, the true message of grace is messy and risky. One learns to govern themselves with only the law of love to guide. What I’m saying is that the Bible is NOT a list of rules for us to obey because the Bible teaches that is not what it is (e.g. we are released from a written code, a set of rules). When we try to codify everything, we are not following the message of grace, but trying to be justified by law. It is the “the spirit” and following the one rule of love that stops the sinful nature from taking over. Actually, the Bible teaches that the law-based way of following God has no power to change us. When people make the Bible into a list of rules that end up ruling one’s life (usually by reading short passages out of their historical, cultural, and literary context, and getting “lost in the words,” so the core meaning is lost), then it is like they are worshiping it over God who has given us the new way of grace in Christ.

]]> By: doug applegate http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/02/08/i-survived-the-christian-right-lesson-2/comment-page-1/#comment-13781 doug applegate Thu, 11 Feb 2010 18:47:54 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2737#comment-13781 i guess i might be one of the bible worshipers if i had to classify myself. i don't really worship the bible. i don't pray to it and i don't think that a tangible book has any kind of power. i pray to God. i believe all power comes from God so i don't believe i am in danger of breaking the second commandment. which is possibly a danger in itself from some of the author's earlier writing about the law. i read in detail in some of the scripture passages he provided and i do say the the whole law vs grace discussion sounded confusing to me. it's heady stuff. but back to the bible. it sounds like you who are supporting the author and are nonsupporters of evangelicals are not making clear to me what you actually believe about the bible. i take a very simple view of the bible. that it's true. this comforts me because it's God's way of telling me how He wants me to live. If i didn't have the bible I would have to guess. i don't want to guess. i want to love God and do it in a way that he wants me to. if we don't see the bible as God's letter to us. Telling us about himself, then it just means that we can all make up our own ideas about who God is and what He wants us to do. We can't just take grace and then say "sweet, i can just do whatever i want to now and God will forgive me. I don't need to follow any of his rules as long as i love what i'm doing and treating others how i would want to be treated." Because if we want to be treated with no rules or laws and want total freedom, then what stops my sinful nature from taking over. This is a lot of rambling on my part. i am obviously not a good writer. i guess in simplest terms what i am asking and noticing is that to seems like the author has a real vague and loose view of the bible and you can kind of pick and choose what you want to obey. am i hearing you right? i guess i might be one of the bible worshipers if i had to classify myself. i don’t really worship the bible. i don’t pray to it and i don’t think that a tangible book has any kind of power. i pray to God. i believe all power comes from God so i don’t believe i am in danger of breaking the second commandment. which is possibly a danger in itself from some of the author’s earlier writing about the law. i read in detail in some of the scripture passages he provided and i do say the the whole law vs grace discussion sounded confusing to me. it’s heady stuff. but back to the bible. it sounds like you who are supporting the author and are nonsupporters of evangelicals are not making clear to me what you actually believe about the bible. i take a very simple view of the bible. that it’s true. this comforts me because it’s God’s way of telling me how He wants me to live. If i didn’t have the bible I would have to guess. i don’t want to guess. i want to love God and do it in a way that he wants me to. if we don’t see the bible as God’s letter to us. Telling us about himself, then it just means that we can all make up our own ideas about who God is and what He wants us to do. We can’t just take grace and then say “sweet, i can just do whatever i want to now and God will forgive me. I don’t need to follow any of his rules as long as i love what i’m doing and treating others how i would want to be treated.” Because if we want to be treated with no rules or laws and want total freedom, then what stops my sinful nature from taking over. This is a lot of rambling on my part. i am obviously not a good writer. i guess in simplest terms what i am asking and noticing is that to seems like the author has a real vague and loose view of the bible and you can kind of pick and choose what you want to obey. am i hearing you right?

]]> By: Jo Ann W. Goodson http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/02/08/i-survived-the-christian-right-lesson-2/comment-page-1/#comment-13587 Jo Ann W. Goodson Tue, 09 Feb 2010 00:41:29 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2737#comment-13587 This is a good article and one that I agree with whole heartedly. You did a great job, in my opinion, of writing this so everyone can understand it. Thanks for the definitions of the theological words that I have heard and read but just cannot remember what they mean. I really hope and pray that many folks will read this. While I agree with all that you said about the way to read our bible, I get much enjoyment from reading it for devotions, Lectio Devina is the technical term. Used in devotion time and the way it is taught it is a powerful way to assist us in opening to God and God's wisdom. I really agree that too many people worship the bible. Though I believe that Jesus was God incarnated, I think we today worship Jesus more than God. The writers of the bible thought and wrote that Jesus asked his disciples, and us, to worship God and not him. He always pointed away from himself and pointed to God. This is a good article and one that I agree with whole heartedly. You did a great job, in my opinion, of writing this so everyone can understand it. Thanks for the definitions of the theological words that I have heard and read but just cannot remember what they mean. I really hope and pray that many folks will read this. While I agree with all that you said about the way to read our bible, I get much enjoyment from reading it for devotions, Lectio Devina is the technical term. Used in devotion time and the way it is taught it is a powerful way to assist us in opening to God and God’s wisdom. I really agree that too many people worship the bible. Though I believe that Jesus was God incarnated, I think we today worship Jesus more than God. The writers of the bible thought and wrote that Jesus asked his disciples, and us, to worship God and not him. He always pointed away from himself and pointed to God.

]]> By: Chase http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/02/08/i-survived-the-christian-right-lesson-2/comment-page-1/#comment-13582 Chase Mon, 08 Feb 2010 22:23:58 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2737#comment-13582 I (newly) attend my family's Bible-Worshiping church. It's a deceptive practice, Bibliolatry. I've spotted it out, yet have had trouble wrestling my hesitance with it into words. Thanks for the help. -Chase I (newly) attend my family’s Bible-Worshiping church.
It’s a deceptive practice, Bibliolatry. I’ve spotted it out, yet have had trouble wrestling my hesitance with it into words.
Thanks for the help.
-Chase

]]> By: Liz http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/02/08/i-survived-the-christian-right-lesson-2/comment-page-1/#comment-13580 Liz Mon, 08 Feb 2010 21:32:48 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2737#comment-13580 I survived the Christian Right also and lived to tell about it:>) I also abused the Bible for many years and was guilty of Bibliolatry (love that term but don't know if it you made it up or not:>) I finally realized there is no evidence that the Bible is inerrant (deep down I always had a problem with that idea) but that there is still truth (not so much facts, but truth) in scripture. Now, I read and interpret scripture according to it's historical, cultural and literary context...and I don't worship it. I love your 10 lessons here and will link to your post on my blog tomorrow for 3 Things Tuesday. I survived the Christian Right also and lived to tell about it:>) I also abused the Bible for many years and was guilty of Bibliolatry (love that term but don’t know if it you made it up or not:>) I finally realized there is no evidence that the Bible is inerrant (deep down I always had a problem with that idea) but that there is still truth (not so much facts, but truth) in scripture. Now, I read and interpret scripture according to it’s historical, cultural and literary context…and I don’t worship it.
I love your 10 lessons here and will link to your post on my blog tomorrow for 3 Things Tuesday.

]]> By: Bill Langill http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/02/08/i-survived-the-christian-right-lesson-2/comment-page-1/#comment-13576 Bill Langill Mon, 08 Feb 2010 19:58:22 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2737#comment-13576 Hello Micheal The Devil really is in the details, Personally I view scripture with 2 big over arching ideas, Love and Relationship. I prefer to view scripture from a birds eye view, recently I was watching a Jesus debater on a podcast and it struck me that he was lost in the words. I wonder when it was that we forgot how to fly brother? Pastor Bill Langill jr from Middle Earth Hello Micheal

The Devil really is in the details, Personally I view scripture with 2 big over arching ideas, Love and Relationship. I prefer to view scripture from a birds eye view, recently I was watching a Jesus debater on a podcast and it struck me that he was lost in the words. I wonder when it was that we forgot how to fly brother?

Pastor Bill Langill jr
from Middle Earth

]]> By: stephy http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/02/08/i-survived-the-christian-right-lesson-2/comment-page-1/#comment-13567 stephy Mon, 08 Feb 2010 16:17:46 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2737#comment-13567 Thanks for writing about this, it needs to be talked about. Thanks for writing about this, it needs to be talked about.

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