Comments on: I Survived the Christian Right: Ten Lessons I Learned on My Journey Home http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/02/04/i-survived-the-christian-right-ten-lessons-i-learned-on-my-journey-home-2/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=i-survived-the-christian-right-ten-lessons-i-learned-on-my-journey-home-2 Equipping grassroots theologians for creative thinking, engaging, and living. Wed, 23 May 2012 15:21:48 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: What the hell happened to the Good News? | The Progressive Christian Alliance http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/02/04/i-survived-the-christian-right-ten-lessons-i-learned-on-my-journey-home-2/comment-page-1/#comment-43220 What the hell happened to the Good News? | The Progressive Christian Alliance Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:40:31 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2712#comment-43220 [...] I Survived the Christian Right: Ten Lessons I Learned on My Journey Home (homebrewedchristianity.com) [...] [...] I Survived the Christian Right: Ten Lessons I Learned on My Journey Home (homebrewedchristianity.com) [...]

]]> By: Michael http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/02/04/i-survived-the-christian-right-ten-lessons-i-learned-on-my-journey-home-2/comment-page-1/#comment-13730 Michael Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:48:26 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2712#comment-13730 Mike L., Confronting legalism doesn't mean people abandon their ethical, moral, and social values. Legalism is a strict conformity to the letter of the law rather than its spirit. It's an over emphasis on codes of conduct and under emphasis on personal freedom. Sure, your group has a value of not being racist, but how is that legalistic? You love all equally and encourage others to do the same. That's not being legalistic. Christ's way is making the law of love the rule, and not a set of behavior codes. So, one still has a love ethic to follow. Legalism is more when a church or individual makes a strict code of conduct a requirement for salvation or acceptance or pleasing God, so a person is measured, not by how they love others, but how well they perform a duty--attend a church, meeting, regular prayer, follow a code of speech, dress, refrain from certain taboos, strictly conform to rules, etc. Mike L.,
Confronting legalism doesn’t mean people abandon their ethical, moral, and social values. Legalism is a strict conformity to the letter of the law rather than its spirit. It’s an over emphasis on codes of conduct and under emphasis on personal freedom. Sure, your group has a value of not being racist, but how is that legalistic? You love all equally and encourage others to do the same. That’s not being legalistic. Christ’s way is making the law of love the rule, and not a set of behavior codes. So, one still has a love ethic to follow. Legalism is more when a church or individual makes a strict code of conduct a requirement for salvation or acceptance or pleasing God, so a person is measured, not by how they love others, but how well they perform a duty–attend a church, meeting, regular prayer, follow a code of speech, dress, refrain from certain taboos, strictly conform to rules, etc.

]]> By: MIke L. http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/02/04/i-survived-the-christian-right-ten-lessons-i-learned-on-my-journey-home-2/comment-page-1/#comment-13651 MIke L. Tue, 09 Feb 2010 16:14:31 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2712#comment-13651 I'm wondering if it is really possible to avoid "legalism". Isn't any ethical, moral, or social value labeled "legalism" if you disagree with it, but not if you agree? For example, I've been in a small discussion group (you might even call it a home church) for several years. Last year a racist started showing up and voicing his opinion. Were we being "legalistic" about his views when we confronted his racism? Should we have accepted racism as a value welcomed in our discussions? We never told him to leave, but I'm sure our disagreement with his views felt to him exactly like the "hoops" in our former fundamentalist/Evangelical churches. People gather around common values. If you avoid sharing any value in public discourse that may not have 100% agreement, then you won't have much to say. Any expression of a shared value in your group is legalism toward any person who doesn't share the same value. I’m wondering if it is really possible to avoid “legalism”. Isn’t any ethical, moral, or social value labeled “legalism” if you disagree with it, but not if you agree?

For example, I’ve been in a small discussion group (you might even call it a home church) for several years. Last year a racist started showing up and voicing his opinion. Were we being “legalistic” about his views when we confronted his racism? Should we have accepted racism as a value welcomed in our discussions? We never told him to leave, but I’m sure our disagreement with his views felt to him exactly like the “hoops” in our former fundamentalist/Evangelical churches.

People gather around common values. If you avoid sharing any value in public discourse that may not have 100% agreement, then you won’t have much to say. Any expression of a shared value in your group is legalism toward any person who doesn’t share the same value.

]]> By: Jo Ann W. Goodson http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/02/04/i-survived-the-christian-right-ten-lessons-i-learned-on-my-journey-home-2/comment-page-1/#comment-13565 Jo Ann W. Goodson Mon, 08 Feb 2010 15:56:35 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2712#comment-13565 Michael Camp, I agree with your thinking. Even in ethics, one ethic has several ways that it can be worked out or lived out. Nothing is black and white but legalism trys to make it only black and white. All of the new testament, for me, is all about love and making our actions intentional based on love. This calls for moment by moment discernment on our part. With the help of The Holy Spirit an individual must call upon their knowledge of the bible, their previous experiences of God and their education. This is a difficult path to travel and we cannot do it alone. God and others must help us but the final decision of what is to be done, is ours. The bullet stops with me. If all our actions are accomplished in this manor then love will prevail in the end. We must always consider what affect our words and actions will have in any situation so that it is for the best for all concerned. Debating was previously mentioned but I do not think this is a good method, it is too much like legalism and you have a winner in the end. In love there is a win win situation not just one winner that by being the winner feels superior to another. Using the method of intentionality, we will make mistakes as we go because we do not know enough or experienced enough. However, with practice, more learning, more experience we get better and better. We are always in progression. This is a process and a journey with mistakes made along the way but that is the journey of faith, falling down and getting back up. Finding spiritual practices and using them to open ourselves to the wisdom and presence of God will help us on this journey of mending the world and treating all with the respect and love each child of God deserves. For me, every person born into this world is a child of God. It's not based on what we believe. Conversaton around a table with others is a great way to allow for intentional love and everyone has a say. We learn by sharing with each other not dictating to anyone. One on one conversations sometimes allows for more intimate conversation but is more difficult, you use the value others bring to the table. I think conversation is far superior to debate or any dictorial practice. You cannot force anyone to do something against their desire or belief, or should not. We, like God, can only guide and nudge. LOVE IS THE THEME !!!! Michael Camp, I agree with your thinking. Even in ethics, one ethic has several ways that it can be worked out or lived out. Nothing is black and white but legalism trys to make it only black and white. All of the new testament, for me, is all about love and making our actions intentional based on love. This calls for moment by moment discernment on our part. With the help of The Holy Spirit an individual must call upon their knowledge of the bible, their previous experiences of God and their education. This is a difficult path to travel and we cannot do it alone. God and others must help us but the final decision of what is to be done, is ours. The bullet stops with me. If all our actions are accomplished in this manor then love will prevail in the end. We must always consider what affect our words and actions will have in any situation so that it is for the best for all concerned. Debating was previously mentioned but I do not think this is a good method, it is too much like legalism and you have a winner in the end. In love there is a win win situation not just one winner that by being the winner feels superior to another. Using the method of intentionality, we will make mistakes as we go because we do not know enough or experienced enough. However, with practice, more learning, more experience we get better and better. We are always in progression. This is a process and a journey with mistakes made along the way but that is the journey of faith, falling down and getting back up. Finding spiritual practices and using them to open ourselves to the wisdom and presence of God will help us on this journey of mending the world and treating all with the respect and love each child of God deserves. For me, every person born into this world is a child of God. It’s not based on what we believe. Conversaton around a table with others is a great way to allow for intentional love and everyone has a say. We learn by sharing with each other not dictating to anyone. One on one conversations sometimes allows for more intimate conversation but is more difficult, you use the value others bring to the table. I think conversation is far superior to debate or any dictorial practice. You cannot force anyone to do something against their desire or belief, or should not. We, like God, can only guide and nudge. LOVE IS THE THEME !!!!

]]> By: Michael Camp http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/02/04/i-survived-the-christian-right-ten-lessons-i-learned-on-my-journey-home-2/comment-page-1/#comment-13550 Michael Camp Mon, 08 Feb 2010 05:30:20 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2712#comment-13550 Michael WW, You are right. The risk is people avoiding standards. But avoiding legalism doesn't mean "anything goes." It means measuring ones behavior by the law of love, not legalistic demands. If a behavior violates love for a neighbor, it is wrong. Of course, that means individuals need to police themselves, which is just too scary for the Caretakers of Religion. They rather control people. Inevitably, not everyone will agree on what is acceptable but it is appropriate for people to make a case for a "normal standard" based on love. This is far superior, in my mind, than the system of control that is present in many churches and that is the basis for all Religion. Michael WW,
You are right. The risk is people avoiding standards. But avoiding legalism doesn’t mean “anything goes.” It means measuring ones behavior by the law of love, not legalistic demands. If a behavior violates love for a neighbor, it is wrong. Of course, that means individuals need to police themselves, which is just too scary for the Caretakers of Religion. They rather control people. Inevitably, not everyone will agree on what is acceptable but it is appropriate for people to make a case for a “normal standard” based on love. This is far superior, in my mind, than the system of control that is present in many churches and that is the basis for all Religion.

]]> By: Michael Westmoreland-White http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/02/04/i-survived-the-christian-right-ten-lessons-i-learned-on-my-journey-home-2/comment-page-1/#comment-13518 Michael Westmoreland-White Sun, 07 Feb 2010 12:31:07 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2712#comment-13518 #1 is a great lesson. Unfortunately, I've found that one of the results of legalism on those who leave it is a pendulum swing in which they avoid any kind of norms or firm standards like a plague. When I worked for Every Church a Peace Church as Outreach Coordinator, I found that liberal churches, while generally "for peace," were reluctant to say that violence or war were always wrong. That struck them as "legalism" or "judgmental" to those in the military. On the other hand, if evangelical congregations were convinced that Jesus taught pacifism, that settled things. One of the big questions of the American churches is how they can avoid both legalism and a form of tolerance that simply devolves into normless "anything goes." #1 is a great lesson. Unfortunately, I’ve found that one of the results of legalism on those who leave it is a pendulum swing in which they avoid any kind of norms or firm standards like a plague. When I worked for Every Church a Peace Church as Outreach Coordinator, I found that liberal churches, while generally “for peace,” were reluctant to say that violence or war were always wrong. That struck them as “legalism” or “judgmental” to those in the military. On the other hand, if evangelical congregations were convinced that Jesus taught pacifism, that settled things.

One of the big questions of the American churches is how they can avoid both legalism and a form of tolerance that simply devolves into normless “anything goes.”

]]> By: Pastor Bill http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/02/04/i-survived-the-christian-right-ten-lessons-i-learned-on-my-journey-home-2/comment-page-1/#comment-13414 Pastor Bill Fri, 05 Feb 2010 20:28:43 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2712#comment-13414 Micheal Growing up Orthodox Catholic I thought I was getting free of Sacrificial Systems when I left to "Have a Personal Relationship with Jesus" Then a whole new Sacrificial System was put in it's place i.e. 1. The bible as the forth person in the trinity. 2. verse by verse & chapter by chapter legalism. 3. Learning to win people for Jesus by good debate skills. 4th The eventual damnation of most souls due to their not accepting the aforementioned set of ideas. Thank God for a steady stream of progressive catholic thinkers as well as some protestant fellow travelers like yourself brother. Pastor Bill Langill jr. From Middle Earth Micheal

Growing up Orthodox Catholic I thought I was getting free of Sacrificial Systems when I left to “Have a Personal Relationship with Jesus” Then a whole new Sacrificial System was put in it’s place i.e. 1. The bible as the forth person in the trinity. 2. verse by verse & chapter by chapter legalism. 3. Learning to win people for Jesus by good debate skills. 4th The eventual damnation of most souls due to their not accepting the aforementioned set of ideas. Thank God for a steady stream of progressive catholic thinkers as well as some protestant fellow travelers like yourself brother.

Pastor Bill Langill jr.
From Middle Earth

]]> By: Michael http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/02/04/i-survived-the-christian-right-ten-lessons-i-learned-on-my-journey-home-2/comment-page-1/#comment-13368 Michael Thu, 04 Feb 2010 23:32:54 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2712#comment-13368 matthew, Ah, the ever elusive ETA. I'm shooting by the end of the year but I'm still in the finding-the-right-agent stage. Check my blog or follow me on Twitter from my blog, to check for updates. Thanks for your interest. matthew,
Ah, the ever elusive ETA. I’m shooting by the end of the year but I’m still in the finding-the-right-agent stage. Check my blog or follow me on Twitter from my blog, to check for updates. Thanks for your interest.

]]> By: Jo Ann W. Goodson http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/02/04/i-survived-the-christian-right-ten-lessons-i-learned-on-my-journey-home-2/comment-page-1/#comment-13357 Jo Ann W. Goodson Thu, 04 Feb 2010 19:28:38 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2712#comment-13357 Enjoy the journey. Like you I strongly dislike legalistic thinking and practice. I personally ascribe to being moderate in all things. I love secular music, dancing, having a mixed drink but I do not like swear words at all. Love is the thing. Doing each moment what you think would be the most loving thing to do. Offering grace to others as Jesus did cannot be done without the help of The Holy Spirit, at least for me. However, how are folks going to know what grace is unless we have offered it to them. Mending the world, offering love, mercy and grace and practicing and offering justice for all, these are the important things not living legalistically. I admire some of the evangelicals like Tony Campolo, etc. Hope you will post the other (9). Enjoy the journey. Like you I strongly dislike legalistic thinking and practice. I personally ascribe to being moderate in all things. I love secular music, dancing, having a mixed drink but I do not like swear words at all. Love is the thing. Doing each moment what you think would be the most loving thing to do. Offering grace to others as Jesus did cannot be done without the help of The Holy Spirit, at least for me. However, how are folks going to know what grace is unless we have offered it to them. Mending the world, offering love, mercy and grace and practicing and offering justice for all, these are the important things not living legalistically. I admire some of the evangelicals like Tony Campolo, etc. Hope you will post the other (9).

]]> By: matthew http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/02/04/i-survived-the-christian-right-ten-lessons-i-learned-on-my-journey-home-2/comment-page-1/#comment-13356 matthew Thu, 04 Feb 2010 19:14:35 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2712#comment-13356 This item mirrors my personal experience. I will watch for your book with interest. Do you have an ETA? This item mirrors my personal experience. I will watch for your book with interest. Do you have an ETA?

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