Comments on: Tupper Says “Reject Clericalism!” http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/01/14/tupper-says-reject-clericalism/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=tupper-says-reject-clericalism Equipping grassroots theologians for creative thinking, engaging, and living. Sat, 11 Feb 2012 06:55:27 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Jo Ann W. Goodson http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/01/14/tupper-says-reject-clericalism/comment-page-1/#comment-12263 Jo Ann W. Goodson Sat, 16 Jan 2010 02:56:55 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2492#comment-12263 Deacon Burrley, yes Tupper is awesome !!!!! Deacon Burrley, yes Tupper is awesome !!!!!

]]> By: deacon burrley http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/01/14/tupper-says-reject-clericalism/comment-page-1/#comment-12259 deacon burrley Sat, 16 Jan 2010 00:29:41 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2492#comment-12259 Tupper is awesome. Clericalism sucks! Tupper is awesome. Clericalism sucks!

]]> By: Jo Ann W. Goodson http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/01/14/tupper-says-reject-clericalism/comment-page-1/#comment-12178 Jo Ann W. Goodson Fri, 15 Jan 2010 17:06:34 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2492#comment-12178 I think that one of the points being missed hear is not an attempt to tear down but to build up. The laity in the churches that I have been a member of or visited are very content to be fed and not that much involved in the "market place" or else all of their "outreach" efforts are only holding positions inside the church. What I hear from Dr. Tupper is an effort to equip the laity to help inside the church by teaching, chairing a committee, etc. but more importantly to be equipped to go out into the "market place" and work with God to reach those both in and out of church. In order to do this the laity need to have a good understanding of what they believe and how to articulate that belief. He mentioned the 7 questions that Philip Clayton finds to be critical to our interpretation. Each person must know as much about God as possible and how to articulate our spiritual journeys. One of the best ways to do that is through small groups inside the church formed intentionally for the purpose of helping us with that process. For much of my life I have been involved in ministries outside and inside the church and I know the importance of knowing how to both ask the right questions but also being able to really listen to others. Dr. Tupper wants to see more of the laity involved in worship as well as in teaching, etc. They would be working with staff not doing away with them. Developing creative worship is essential to reaching folks especially between 30 and 40 as well as the younger and older folks. It would be easier in a small congregation with only one minister to grab hold of this vision and gain some help in all the efforts of the church. Those of us who have helped and or participated in some part of the worship service gain so much from this experience. It helps us to appreciate our pastors even more and it gives us a since or responsibility to enter into worship not just being a receiver. As I listen to Dr. Tupper I do not hear him saying do away with teachers and let us do our own thing. For me he is saying just the opposite. The teachers are helping us to become lay-theologians instead of simply telling us a bible story. This means the teachers must be more qualified for teaching and that is the responsibility of the pastors. All in all this vision gives us a more informed, educated and spiritual basis on which to build our understanding of God and our mission in God's kin-dom. I would feel much more a part/member of a church with this vision in place, more like family (brothers and sisters) than I do now. We are all in this important mending of the world and we are all to be ministers, (priesthood of all believers) !!!! Well done Dr. Tupper. I think that one of the points being missed hear is not an attempt to tear down but to build up. The laity in the churches that I have been a member of or visited are very content to be fed and not that much involved in the “market place” or else all of their “outreach” efforts are only holding positions inside the church. What I hear from Dr. Tupper is an effort to equip the laity to help inside the church by teaching, chairing a committee, etc. but more importantly to be equipped to go out into the “market place” and work with God to reach those both in and out of church. In order to do this the laity need to have a good understanding of what they believe and how to articulate that belief. He mentioned the 7 questions that Philip Clayton finds to be critical to our interpretation. Each person must know as much about God as possible and how to articulate our spiritual journeys. One of the best ways to do that is through small groups inside the church formed intentionally for the purpose of helping us with that process. For much of my life I have been involved in ministries outside and inside the church and I know the importance of knowing how to both ask the right questions but also being able to really listen to others. Dr. Tupper wants to see more of the laity involved in worship as well as in teaching, etc. They would be working with staff not doing away with them. Developing creative worship is essential to reaching folks especially between 30 and 40 as well as the younger and older folks. It would be easier in a small congregation with only one minister to grab hold of this vision and gain some help in all the efforts of the church. Those of us who have helped and or participated in some part of the worship service gain so much from this experience. It helps us to appreciate our pastors even more and it gives us a since or responsibility to enter into worship not just being a receiver. As I listen to Dr. Tupper I do not hear him saying do away with teachers and let us do our own thing. For me he is saying just the opposite. The teachers are helping us to become lay-theologians instead of simply telling us a bible story. This means the teachers must be more qualified for teaching and that is the responsibility of the pastors. All in all this vision gives us a more informed, educated and spiritual basis on which to build our understanding of God and our mission in God’s kin-dom. I would feel much more a part/member of a church with this vision in place, more like family (brothers and sisters) than I do now. We are all in this important mending of the world and we are all to be ministers, (priesthood of all believers) !!!! Well done Dr. Tupper.

]]> By: Steven Woolley http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/01/14/tupper-says-reject-clericalism/comment-page-1/#comment-12176 Steven Woolley Fri, 15 Jan 2010 16:16:47 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2492#comment-12176 Every now and then I run into anti-clericalism enthusiasts, and I understand their objections to the old time "Father Knows Best" syndrome. In some churches of my youth, no one dared challenge Herr Pastor. That kind of clericalism deserved to be challenged. But the contemporary challenge always seems to end up like an argument for eliminating teachers from the classroom and letting the class teach itself, or eliminating physicians and letting the patients diagnose and prescribe for each other. I have served in very large urban congregations and very, very small rural congregations, as well as those in between. When the pastor understands her/himself to be the "servant of the servants of God" the argument against clericalism falls apart like a house of cards. CP Every now and then I run into anti-clericalism enthusiasts, and I understand their objections to the old time “Father Knows Best” syndrome. In some churches of my youth, no one dared challenge Herr Pastor. That kind of clericalism deserved to be challenged. But the contemporary challenge always seems to end up like an argument for eliminating teachers from the classroom and letting the class teach itself, or eliminating physicians and letting the patients diagnose and prescribe for each other. I have served in very large urban congregations and very, very small rural congregations, as well as those in between. When the pastor understands her/himself to be the “servant of the servants of God” the argument against clericalism falls apart like a house of cards.
CP

]]> By: Pastor Mack http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/01/14/tupper-says-reject-clericalism/comment-page-1/#comment-12162 Pastor Mack Fri, 15 Jan 2010 08:57:14 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2492#comment-12162 "In small congregations, the pastor does everything." Wholly, fully, unequivocally, wrong. I am a small church pastor, and we would get no ministry done whatsoever without the work, sweat, blood and tears of many. This is true for everything from worship, to basic maintenance, to pastoral care. How does the speaker claim to know everything that all seminary graduates know and are taught? "Radical change! Radical change!" Church is nothing new, friends. We move forward by looking back into the legacy of the Church, the Fathers, and the witness of the Saints. Methinks it's all bunk. The Bible "does not fit"? Please, please, please, read some postliberal theology - some Lindbeck and Placher. Don't assume the world and then question the Bible. Assume the Bible, and use it to question, reframe, and remake the world. There is your radical change. “In small congregations, the pastor does everything.”

Wholly, fully, unequivocally, wrong. I am a small church pastor, and we would get no ministry done whatsoever without the work, sweat, blood and tears of many. This is true for everything from worship, to basic maintenance, to pastoral care.

How does the speaker claim to know everything that all seminary graduates know and are taught?

“Radical change! Radical change!” Church is nothing new, friends. We move forward by looking back into the legacy of the Church, the Fathers, and the witness of the Saints.

Methinks it’s all bunk.

The Bible “does not fit”? Please, please, please, read some postliberal theology – some Lindbeck and Placher. Don’t assume the world and then question the Bible. Assume the Bible, and use it to question, reframe, and remake the world. There is your radical change.

]]> By: Jo Ann W. Goodson http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2010/01/14/tupper-says-reject-clericalism/comment-page-1/#comment-12158 Jo Ann W. Goodson Fri, 15 Jan 2010 05:25:43 +0000 http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2492#comment-12158 It is my opinion that Dr. Tupper has a vision that is radical but would change not only our church and its community but each individual would know a joy they have never known. The reason being for me is, when we each have the ability to see ourselves and our lives in the bible, the bible and our lives are transformed. When we seek wisdom, knowledge and experiences of God, we will find them and our lives will be transformed. Paul encourages us to "be transformed by the renewal of your minds." The only way that we can do that is to first start with ourselves and then join a community of like seekers. Every thing is made "new." If we become lay theologians we will never cease to be "learners." We get there not on our own but with guidance from The Holy Spirit and with help from the wise among us. Each of us must or should share our stories in small groups in our churches so we will become closer brothers and sisters but also better equipped, and have the desire, to share with others outside of our church and homes. Every person has a spiritual journey story and if we listen to them very closely we will learn a little more about God. Why, because it is my belief that God is within each of us whether we recognize God or not. Once we grasp that concept we want to become a much better person as we are each a child of God just by being born. We look to Jesus as the son and we are made in the image of God. We want others to see God in us, the transformed ones. No we will not be perfect ever but we will be better and different than we were before knowing God. Thanks to Dr. Tupper for his vision. It is my hope and prayer that we will accept his challenge and begin first beginning the transformation in ourselves and then ask our church community to join us. I have a feeling if everyone would do this this world we know will be a "new" world. We should voluteer to help the ministers in our church and maybe the way our churches are now structured would be changed to involve more of the laity. Lay theologians are sorely needed as we are the ones who are out in the community everyday and see more folks than ministers. We have far more opportunity to share and volunteer than ministers do. If the community outside of our churches see a "new" us, they may just ask what has made the difference and we will be ready to share the why with them. I pray for this vision of Dr. Tuppers to really take off and help us and the world to be "transformed." It is my opinion that Dr. Tupper has a vision that is radical but would change not only our church and its community but each individual would know a joy they have never known. The reason being for me is, when we each have the ability to see ourselves and our lives in the bible, the bible and our lives are transformed. When we seek wisdom, knowledge and experiences of God, we will find them and our lives will be transformed. Paul encourages us to “be transformed by the renewal of your minds.” The only way that we can do that is to first start with ourselves and then join a community of like seekers. Every thing is made “new.” If we become lay theologians we will never cease to be “learners.” We get there not on our own but with guidance from The Holy Spirit and with help from the wise among us. Each of us must or should share our stories in small groups in our churches so we will become closer brothers and sisters but also better equipped, and have the desire, to share with others outside of our church and homes. Every person has a spiritual journey story and if we listen to them very closely we will learn a little more about God. Why, because it is my belief that God is within each of us whether we recognize God or not. Once we grasp that concept we want to become a much better person as we are each a child of God just by being born. We look to Jesus as the son and we are made in the image of God. We want others to see God in us, the transformed ones. No we will not be perfect ever but we will be better and different than we were before knowing God. Thanks to Dr. Tupper for his vision. It is my hope and prayer that we will accept his challenge and begin first beginning the transformation in ourselves and then ask our church community to join us. I have a feeling if everyone would do this this world we know will be a “new” world. We should voluteer to help the ministers in our church and maybe the way our churches are now structured would be changed to involve more of the laity. Lay theologians are sorely needed as we are the ones who are out in the community everyday and see more folks than ministers. We have far more opportunity to share and volunteer than ministers do. If the community outside of our churches see a “new” us, they may just ask what has made the difference and we will be ready to share the why with them. I pray for this vision of Dr. Tuppers to really take off and help us and the world to be “transformed.”

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