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	<title>Comments on: The Church as More than Necessary: Some Culminating Thoughts on Secularity</title>
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	<link>http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2009/10/11/the-church-as-more-than-necessary-some-culminating-thoughts-on-secularity/?utm_source=rss&#038;utm_medium=rss&#038;utm_campaign=the-church-as-more-than-necessary-some-culminating-thoughts-on-secularity</link>
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		<title>By: Deacon Hall</title>
		<link>http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2009/10/11/the-church-as-more-than-necessary-some-culminating-thoughts-on-secularity/comment-page-1/#comment-10361</link>
		<dc:creator>Deacon Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 06:06:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2137#comment-10361</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the thoughts, Willem; they&#039;re always welcome, here.  We&#039;d love to here more from our transatlantic friends!  

I think you and I share a similar understanding on this issue.  The questions, it seems, are universal, and I have similar responses from my own students in this regard.  Part of my question, too, however, is whether the Christian faith (even if not an &quot;orthodox&quot; variety) itself has anything to contribute to a possible answer, no matter how incomplete an answer must always perhaps be.  I tend to think it does; but, as I admit, I&#039;m part of a dying breed in some ways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the thoughts, Willem; they&#8217;re always welcome, here.  We&#8217;d love to here more from our transatlantic friends!  </p>
<p>I think you and I share a similar understanding on this issue.  The questions, it seems, are universal, and I have similar responses from my own students in this regard.  Part of my question, too, however, is whether the Christian faith (even if not an &#8220;orthodox&#8221; variety) itself has anything to contribute to a possible answer, no matter how incomplete an answer must always perhaps be.  I tend to think it does; but, as I admit, I&#8217;m part of a dying breed in some ways.</p>
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		<title>By: Willem Kooijman</title>
		<link>http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2009/10/11/the-church-as-more-than-necessary-some-culminating-thoughts-on-secularity/comment-page-1/#comment-10310</link>
		<dc:creator>Willem Kooijman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 13:41:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2137#comment-10310</guid>
		<description>I am a retired high school teacher who taught English and religion at a secondary school in Holland for 36 years. This explains why I have such a lot of spare time and spend quite a bit of it on the net.
First of all I just want to say that today, Tuesday, I really spent many hours studying this webside/this blog. And I really enjoyed it Because I visit lots of websites and blogs I am in a position where I can compare many of them and I must say that this is really one of the better ones.
Sometimes I try to add a few meangful (I hope) thoughts to the ongoing discussions. I did that this morning. Also for The Homebrewed Chrisrtianity and I will try it now once again.
Also in Holland many people think that Christianity is a dying phenomenon. Fewer and fewer people go to church. Most people have absolutely no idea what the Christian faith stands for. Most people have never read any passage from the Bible.
On the other hand:
Like I said: I spent my life teaching English and religion (the Christian faith). At a Roman Catholic School that was run by Carmelite priests when I started teaching there some 35 years ago. The priests have disappeared. So has the emphasis on the Christian faith. But..... religion was and is still an obligatory subject at the school where I was a teacher. And I must say that I always found my students (between 16 and 18 years of age) highly interested. Perhaps not so much in the traditional teachings and doctrines of Christianity, but more in the big question about life that Christianity deals with. Questions about the origin of man, the meaning of life, of suffering, of death. 
We should never forget that the Bible and Christianity deal with the great fundamental questions that are truly universal: shared by all people of all times. I think that this fact makes the Bible and the Christian faith human phenomena that will never disappear and will continue to  inspire all people who are seriously looking for rigtheousness, the best way to live and the best answers to life&#039;&#039;s great questions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a retired high school teacher who taught English and religion at a secondary school in Holland for 36 years. This explains why I have such a lot of spare time and spend quite a bit of it on the net.<br />
First of all I just want to say that today, Tuesday, I really spent many hours studying this webside/this blog. And I really enjoyed it Because I visit lots of websites and blogs I am in a position where I can compare many of them and I must say that this is really one of the better ones.<br />
Sometimes I try to add a few meangful (I hope) thoughts to the ongoing discussions. I did that this morning. Also for The Homebrewed Chrisrtianity and I will try it now once again.<br />
Also in Holland many people think that Christianity is a dying phenomenon. Fewer and fewer people go to church. Most people have absolutely no idea what the Christian faith stands for. Most people have never read any passage from the Bible.<br />
On the other hand:<br />
Like I said: I spent my life teaching English and religion (the Christian faith). At a Roman Catholic School that was run by Carmelite priests when I started teaching there some 35 years ago. The priests have disappeared. So has the emphasis on the Christian faith. But&#8230;.. religion was and is still an obligatory subject at the school where I was a teacher. And I must say that I always found my students (between 16 and 18 years of age) highly interested. Perhaps not so much in the traditional teachings and doctrines of Christianity, but more in the big question about life that Christianity deals with. Questions about the origin of man, the meaning of life, of suffering, of death.<br />
We should never forget that the Bible and Christianity deal with the great fundamental questions that are truly universal: shared by all people of all times. I think that this fact makes the Bible and the Christian faith human phenomena that will never disappear and will continue to  inspire all people who are seriously looking for rigtheousness, the best way to live and the best answers to life&#8221;s great questions.</p>
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		<title>By: Deacon Hall</title>
		<link>http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2009/10/11/the-church-as-more-than-necessary-some-culminating-thoughts-on-secularity/comment-page-1/#comment-8627</link>
		<dc:creator>Deacon Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 17:57:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2137#comment-8627</guid>
		<description>Hi J.P.,

I think your comment is extremely important.  I have no answer to your thoughts, but let me share with you directly an email I wrote to my rector not too long ago.  I think it resonates with many of your concerns, except for more precisely in the episcopal/Anglican tradition.  I will add what I think is one important insight, however: what will not work is to allow the faith to be reduced to either Jesus flavored humanism or to entertainment, the first of which more liberal traditions are especially prone to doing, even more than the second.  How to overcome these barriers, I&#039;m not sure.  I guess a lot of experimentation will help, and a forum for which to dialogue about these experiments, both in terms of their success and theological viability. 
___________________________________________________

I’ve been thinking a lot lately about Episcopal/Anglican identity lately.  I’m not sure how, but I believe these thoughts might have some pertinence to some of the questions we’ve been and will talk about both in the Vestry and in person, especially as we discuss outreach to youth and young adults.  As I have come to think through the matter of Episcopal/Anglican identity, I’ve come to see two strands of identity as particularly relevant for this discussion; neither will be new to you. 

The first is, no doubt, the liturgy.  Because we have neither a legal bond to Canterbury, nor any exact theological formula for what we must believe (with perhaps the exception that Jesus saved as the second person of the Trinity), this event and its symbol in the Book of Common Prayer are the bonds that holds our communion together.  The liturgy, then, forms, the centerpiece of any specifically Anglican style of worship.

Secondly, however, (and historically speaking), we Anglicans have rejected the Protestant claim of sola scriptura and the Catholic claim of sola ecclesia, holding that both scripture and Church tradition must be held in tension reason.  That is, one might say that only sola was rejected in either of the above formulations, allowing both of the other halves their proper say alongside the constant developments and movements of human knowledge in what might be called a reasoned discourse.  So, the second aspect of our identity is found in the conscious awareness of the fact that we haven’t figured everything out and that we probably won’t.

If it bears any truth, what this analysis seems to point to is the fact that, theologically speaking, we are amorphous, in constant exploration, and lacking in certainty (despite, again, the fact that we are saved by the second person of the Trinity)--this fact, I believe, is a good thing.  At the same time, we are bound to a particular way of doing things that, while retaining some flexibility, remains firm enough to ground a communion, which is also a good thing.  Here’s the problem: my read of contemporary culture is that people interested in the Christian faith at all are often looking for very secure doctrinal formulations while retaining absolute flexibility in the way that they are able to express these doctrines.  This means that we’re on the “wrong” side of the ecclesial tracks, at least if this formulation of the problem has any truth to it.  This might also mean that outreach from an Episcopal perspective must be formulated as an attempt to “persuade” (and I use this term very loosely) people that a certain way of worship such as ours is often times more “authentically” true to the mystery of this life and this world than other more Evangelical churches tend to offer.  Since certainty has such psychological benefits and constancy such psychological malady (for our contemporary culture, anyways), this might be a hard fight—and by “might” I mean will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi J.P.,</p>
<p>I think your comment is extremely important.  I have no answer to your thoughts, but let me share with you directly an email I wrote to my rector not too long ago.  I think it resonates with many of your concerns, except for more precisely in the episcopal/Anglican tradition.  I will add what I think is one important insight, however: what will not work is to allow the faith to be reduced to either Jesus flavored humanism or to entertainment, the first of which more liberal traditions are especially prone to doing, even more than the second.  How to overcome these barriers, I&#8217;m not sure.  I guess a lot of experimentation will help, and a forum for which to dialogue about these experiments, both in terms of their success and theological viability.<br />
___________________________________________________</p>
<p>I’ve been thinking a lot lately about Episcopal/Anglican identity lately.  I’m not sure how, but I believe these thoughts might have some pertinence to some of the questions we’ve been and will talk about both in the Vestry and in person, especially as we discuss outreach to youth and young adults.  As I have come to think through the matter of Episcopal/Anglican identity, I’ve come to see two strands of identity as particularly relevant for this discussion; neither will be new to you. </p>
<p>The first is, no doubt, the liturgy.  Because we have neither a legal bond to Canterbury, nor any exact theological formula for what we must believe (with perhaps the exception that Jesus saved as the second person of the Trinity), this event and its symbol in the Book of Common Prayer are the bonds that holds our communion together.  The liturgy, then, forms, the centerpiece of any specifically Anglican style of worship.</p>
<p>Secondly, however, (and historically speaking), we Anglicans have rejected the Protestant claim of sola scriptura and the Catholic claim of sola ecclesia, holding that both scripture and Church tradition must be held in tension reason.  That is, one might say that only sola was rejected in either of the above formulations, allowing both of the other halves their proper say alongside the constant developments and movements of human knowledge in what might be called a reasoned discourse.  So, the second aspect of our identity is found in the conscious awareness of the fact that we haven’t figured everything out and that we probably won’t.</p>
<p>If it bears any truth, what this analysis seems to point to is the fact that, theologically speaking, we are amorphous, in constant exploration, and lacking in certainty (despite, again, the fact that we are saved by the second person of the Trinity)&#8211;this fact, I believe, is a good thing.  At the same time, we are bound to a particular way of doing things that, while retaining some flexibility, remains firm enough to ground a communion, which is also a good thing.  Here’s the problem: my read of contemporary culture is that people interested in the Christian faith at all are often looking for very secure doctrinal formulations while retaining absolute flexibility in the way that they are able to express these doctrines.  This means that we’re on the “wrong” side of the ecclesial tracks, at least if this formulation of the problem has any truth to it.  This might also mean that outreach from an Episcopal perspective must be formulated as an attempt to “persuade” (and I use this term very loosely) people that a certain way of worship such as ours is often times more “authentically” true to the mystery of this life and this world than other more Evangelical churches tend to offer.  Since certainty has such psychological benefits and constancy such psychological malady (for our contemporary culture, anyways), this might be a hard fight—and by “might” I mean will.</p>
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		<title>By: J.P.</title>
		<link>http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2009/10/11/the-church-as-more-than-necessary-some-culminating-thoughts-on-secularity/comment-page-1/#comment-8624</link>
		<dc:creator>J.P.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:49:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2137#comment-8624</guid>
		<description>First of all, I would like to say to the fellow homebrewers that I love the blog.  I read it often.  But on to the task at hand.  As a United Methodist clergyperson I find myself as a &quot;theologian in the trenches.&quot;  I graduated from the same divinity school as Tripp and I see firsthand the challenges that come along with trying to bring a new interpretation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ into a world that in so many ways has found it to be irrelevant.  But in the community where I live I find a different kind of challenge.  It seems as though the churches that are experiencing the most &quot;growth&quot; are the ones that are in fact the most &quot;dogmatic.&quot;  Those churches that provide the &quot;formulaic and propositional&quot; interpretation of the Gospel seem to be the ones that are growing.  Those who have an aggressive and urgent way of propagating the Gospel, places where heaven and hell are as black and white of a concept as the changing of seasons.  And I truly wonder why this is the case.  On one hand it seems as though people are tired of hearing about &quot;fire and brimstone&quot; in one breath, but yet in another they seem impulsively drawn to this kind of setting.  Is it because of their dogmatism? Is it because there is nothing &quot;wishy-washy or esoteric&quot; about them?  Perhaps people want to be &quot;told&quot; what to believe, and not to explore their faith.  I do believe however that there has to be another way, but I&#039;m not quite sure how to get there.  Is there something that we can learn from the &quot;dogmatist?&quot;  Is the sawdust trial what people want, and is there a &quot;liberalist alternative?&quot;  I struggle with this each and every day I have the privilege of standing behind a pulpit.  Theology needs to be relevant to each and every person, and so what is the way of bringing the ivory tower back down to reality?  Does it mean that for me to be an effective Pastor that I have to &quot;sell my soul to get there?&quot;  I would love to see some research at some point about evangelism in the non-dogmatic tradition.  I think that it&#039;s imperative that we make the gospel relevant to the masses, but not that the expense of destroying pastoral authenticity, in order words I have no desire to &quot;forget that I even went to div school.&quot;  I still believe that church has something to offer the world, and I pray that God will help the &quot;theologians in the trenches&quot; bring it to God&#039;s spiritually starving world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all, I would like to say to the fellow homebrewers that I love the blog.  I read it often.  But on to the task at hand.  As a United Methodist clergyperson I find myself as a &#8220;theologian in the trenches.&#8221;  I graduated from the same divinity school as Tripp and I see firsthand the challenges that come along with trying to bring a new interpretation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ into a world that in so many ways has found it to be irrelevant.  But in the community where I live I find a different kind of challenge.  It seems as though the churches that are experiencing the most &#8220;growth&#8221; are the ones that are in fact the most &#8220;dogmatic.&#8221;  Those churches that provide the &#8220;formulaic and propositional&#8221; interpretation of the Gospel seem to be the ones that are growing.  Those who have an aggressive and urgent way of propagating the Gospel, places where heaven and hell are as black and white of a concept as the changing of seasons.  And I truly wonder why this is the case.  On one hand it seems as though people are tired of hearing about &#8220;fire and brimstone&#8221; in one breath, but yet in another they seem impulsively drawn to this kind of setting.  Is it because of their dogmatism? Is it because there is nothing &#8220;wishy-washy or esoteric&#8221; about them?  Perhaps people want to be &#8220;told&#8221; what to believe, and not to explore their faith.  I do believe however that there has to be another way, but I&#8217;m not quite sure how to get there.  Is there something that we can learn from the &#8220;dogmatist?&#8221;  Is the sawdust trial what people want, and is there a &#8220;liberalist alternative?&#8221;  I struggle with this each and every day I have the privilege of standing behind a pulpit.  Theology needs to be relevant to each and every person, and so what is the way of bringing the ivory tower back down to reality?  Does it mean that for me to be an effective Pastor that I have to &#8220;sell my soul to get there?&#8221;  I would love to see some research at some point about evangelism in the non-dogmatic tradition.  I think that it&#8217;s imperative that we make the gospel relevant to the masses, but not that the expense of destroying pastoral authenticity, in order words I have no desire to &#8220;forget that I even went to div school.&#8221;  I still believe that church has something to offer the world, and I pray that God will help the &#8220;theologians in the trenches&#8221; bring it to God&#8217;s spiritually starving world.</p>
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		<title>By: Brother Fuller</title>
		<link>http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2009/10/11/the-church-as-more-than-necessary-some-culminating-thoughts-on-secularity/comment-page-1/#comment-8286</link>
		<dc:creator>Brother Fuller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 14:27:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2137#comment-8286</guid>
		<description>Deacon Hall, 

I think you have written an excellent post.  Your command to &quot;kill our attitudes of entitlement&quot; resonates with me, while at the same time, it scares me as one who is employed by a province of an old Protestant denomination.  In my last year of divinity school, after having avoided &quot;practical ministry&quot; classes almost entirely, I kept asking my colleagues, &quot;Now that the Western  world has decided it doesn&#039;t need the Church for salvation, how are we going to sell Jesus&#039; Good News?&quot;  Your &quot;more than necessary&quot; response, emphasizing the gift of grace in fellowship and beauty, at least begins to capture the need for us, as disciples, to offer grace to the world in a real and meaningful way even when it is not profitable, fungible, or necessary.  As you said, &quot;nothing is the necessity, the naturality of what we are&quot; as dust and ash, however, as children of God we bear a gift that is beyond necessary and transcends a life lived in the lethargy of consumers who are to be consumed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Deacon Hall, </p>
<p>I think you have written an excellent post.  Your command to &#8220;kill our attitudes of entitlement&#8221; resonates with me, while at the same time, it scares me as one who is employed by a province of an old Protestant denomination.  In my last year of divinity school, after having avoided &#8220;practical ministry&#8221; classes almost entirely, I kept asking my colleagues, &#8220;Now that the Western  world has decided it doesn&#8217;t need the Church for salvation, how are we going to sell Jesus&#8217; Good News?&#8221;  Your &#8220;more than necessary&#8221; response, emphasizing the gift of grace in fellowship and beauty, at least begins to capture the need for us, as disciples, to offer grace to the world in a real and meaningful way even when it is not profitable, fungible, or necessary.  As you said, &#8220;nothing is the necessity, the naturality of what we are&#8221; as dust and ash, however, as children of God we bear a gift that is beyond necessary and transcends a life lived in the lethargy of consumers who are to be consumed.</p>
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		<title>By: Deacon Hall</title>
		<link>http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2009/10/11/the-church-as-more-than-necessary-some-culminating-thoughts-on-secularity/comment-page-1/#comment-8246</link>
		<dc:creator>Deacon Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 06:18:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2137#comment-8246</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m actually thinkin Tripp needs to do the no-stache beard as I regrow that beautiful lip-warmer.  Then we can do a video on the topic instead. 

 We&#039;ve talked about doing a show on the topic, but I think we&#039;re waiting for Cobb to finish his book on the matter in order to interview him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m actually thinkin Tripp needs to do the no-stache beard as I regrow that beautiful lip-warmer.  Then we can do a video on the topic instead. </p>
<p> We&#8217;ve talked about doing a show on the topic, but I think we&#8217;re waiting for Cobb to finish his book on the matter in order to interview him.</p>
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		<title>By: Deacon Harlod</title>
		<link>http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2009/10/11/the-church-as-more-than-necessary-some-culminating-thoughts-on-secularity/comment-page-1/#comment-8240</link>
		<dc:creator>Deacon Harlod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 23:25:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2137#comment-8240</guid>
		<description>thanks for a great post D. Hall.  

it would be cool if you and tripp did a podcast on this whole topic.  aren&#039;t hall in the same place?  maybe you can get him to trim the beard and sport a sweet stache.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanks for a great post D. Hall.  </p>
<p>it would be cool if you and tripp did a podcast on this whole topic.  aren&#8217;t hall in the same place?  maybe you can get him to trim the beard and sport a sweet stache.</p>
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		<title>By: Deacon Hall</title>
		<link>http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2009/10/11/the-church-as-more-than-necessary-some-culminating-thoughts-on-secularity/comment-page-1/#comment-8236</link>
		<dc:creator>Deacon Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 19:35:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2137#comment-8236</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your comments, all of you.  As to the first two posts, I cannot say that I have any answers or disagreements.  The insights in this post are relatively new to me as well; I&#039;ll need some time to work them out more coherently and appreciate any help in doing so.  But you both raise extremely important questions and ideas.  I might respond to your question, Deacon Burley, that one of the ways I&#039;m trying to begin looking at religion is in terms other than function.  It has no function, perhaps even moral, if it is more than necessary.  It is a response to the gift of salvation for which it might not need to serve an alternative social purpose.  I honestly don&#039;t know and am well aware of both the critiques and concerns with such a view.  But it&#039;s a position at least worth exploring.  

As for your response, David, I truly appreciate the insight and wise-words.  They are not lost on me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comments, all of you.  As to the first two posts, I cannot say that I have any answers or disagreements.  The insights in this post are relatively new to me as well; I&#8217;ll need some time to work them out more coherently and appreciate any help in doing so.  But you both raise extremely important questions and ideas.  I might respond to your question, Deacon Burley, that one of the ways I&#8217;m trying to begin looking at religion is in terms other than function.  It has no function, perhaps even moral, if it is more than necessary.  It is a response to the gift of salvation for which it might not need to serve an alternative social purpose.  I honestly don&#8217;t know and am well aware of both the critiques and concerns with such a view.  But it&#8217;s a position at least worth exploring.  </p>
<p>As for your response, David, I truly appreciate the insight and wise-words.  They are not lost on me.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Blair</title>
		<link>http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2009/10/11/the-church-as-more-than-necessary-some-culminating-thoughts-on-secularity/comment-page-1/#comment-8228</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Blair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 12:15:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2137#comment-8228</guid>
		<description>Enjoyed your blog.  Thought provoking.  I just resigned from TEC (the Episcopal Church) this past summer.  Am now an Anglican adrift.  This world-wide Reformation-of-sorts that Christianity is going through is very interesting, but not very &quot;fun&quot; for those of us who enjoy and are comfortable with the old ways.  We&#039;ll all be dead in 30 years, and you younger folks will be the aging pioneers of that brave new world that&#039;s coming into being.  I dare say that what with change being as quick as it is these days, whatever paradigm you develop won&#039;t last your whole lifetime.  But I suppose you&#039;re ready for that.(g)  God speed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Enjoyed your blog.  Thought provoking.  I just resigned from TEC (the Episcopal Church) this past summer.  Am now an Anglican adrift.  This world-wide Reformation-of-sorts that Christianity is going through is very interesting, but not very &#8220;fun&#8221; for those of us who enjoy and are comfortable with the old ways.  We&#8217;ll all be dead in 30 years, and you younger folks will be the aging pioneers of that brave new world that&#8217;s coming into being.  I dare say that what with change being as quick as it is these days, whatever paradigm you develop won&#8217;t last your whole lifetime.  But I suppose you&#8217;re ready for that.(g)  God speed.</p>
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		<title>By: Jo Ann W. Goodson</title>
		<link>http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2009/10/11/the-church-as-more-than-necessary-some-culminating-thoughts-on-secularity/comment-page-1/#comment-8213</link>
		<dc:creator>Jo Ann W. Goodson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Oct 2009 00:22:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2137#comment-8213</guid>
		<description>Very thought provoking. Thanks !!! Are we needed to instill the moral fiber that society needs? My answer would be yes. How do we go about doing that, I would answer by our example. None of us is perfect and never will be and because of that some outside the church call us hypocrits. As difficult as it is to make my case for this and not be thought of as being hypocritical, I will say that being a loving person in every thought, word and deed is essential to our success if any. It is up to each individual to decide how for them this will play out but we must do it. The more we can look at any person whether we think them good or bad and really know deep down in our heart that they are one of God&#039;s children and worthy of respect, we are on our way to being healthy and healing to others. It is my thinking that the more a person thinks of themselves as a child of God and a beloved child of God the more they will want to live a more moral life. So many just do not know what morals are. We can talk about them and some may understand but so many must see to know or believe in simple goodness and kindness, morals. We should yes, be entrepreneurs in  how that is done but just the doing is not going to work without the real genuine love behind it. Some may work individually by volunteering in a poor neighborhood mentoring children or in a day nursery, etc. Some may wish to join with a group that provides meals and shelther for the homeless, etc. My point is that while working and living and conversing with others is how the moral fiber of our society will rise upward, even in our work place. It is not just giving our money or handing out written material, etc. We must think and act evangilically every minute of everyday. Being kind and loving to those who have made us angry or said or done hurtful things. The work of the church is missional and each lay person is a missionary, or should be. We must forgive others actions as we want them to forgive our actions when we fail to be unloving. When we know we have &quot;done it wrong&quot;, made a moral mistake, etc. then ask for forgiveness from a non church goer for example. That way we can tell them we do not mean to be hypocritical in our actions but we to make mistakes and when we do we ask God to forgive us. Then they have seen forgiveness and Grace and we have not given them a definition of the words, we have lived out the words. Do you get the gist of where I am heading. Doing is a very important part of church but being for me is the most important one. In all of this if people see our lives changed they are going to wonder how it happened and we can tell them, in church. That means we have to make &quot;church&quot; different with different ways of offering worship, teaching, etc. to keep the ones we have and provide a safe place for the new ones to come in. Most adults will come in as &quot;little children&quot; in their understanding of the bible or anything else. Are our churches capable now of offering &quot;spiritual food&quot; to adults new to all of this? I think not !! If we want them to come in we must provide for their needs as they are and that may mean changing what we do into &quot;beauty&quot; as has been suggested. Let the beauty begin with our lives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very thought provoking. Thanks !!! Are we needed to instill the moral fiber that society needs? My answer would be yes. How do we go about doing that, I would answer by our example. None of us is perfect and never will be and because of that some outside the church call us hypocrits. As difficult as it is to make my case for this and not be thought of as being hypocritical, I will say that being a loving person in every thought, word and deed is essential to our success if any. It is up to each individual to decide how for them this will play out but we must do it. The more we can look at any person whether we think them good or bad and really know deep down in our heart that they are one of God&#8217;s children and worthy of respect, we are on our way to being healthy and healing to others. It is my thinking that the more a person thinks of themselves as a child of God and a beloved child of God the more they will want to live a more moral life. So many just do not know what morals are. We can talk about them and some may understand but so many must see to know or believe in simple goodness and kindness, morals. We should yes, be entrepreneurs in  how that is done but just the doing is not going to work without the real genuine love behind it. Some may work individually by volunteering in a poor neighborhood mentoring children or in a day nursery, etc. Some may wish to join with a group that provides meals and shelther for the homeless, etc. My point is that while working and living and conversing with others is how the moral fiber of our society will rise upward, even in our work place. It is not just giving our money or handing out written material, etc. We must think and act evangilically every minute of everyday. Being kind and loving to those who have made us angry or said or done hurtful things. The work of the church is missional and each lay person is a missionary, or should be. We must forgive others actions as we want them to forgive our actions when we fail to be unloving. When we know we have &#8220;done it wrong&#8221;, made a moral mistake, etc. then ask for forgiveness from a non church goer for example. That way we can tell them we do not mean to be hypocritical in our actions but we to make mistakes and when we do we ask God to forgive us. Then they have seen forgiveness and Grace and we have not given them a definition of the words, we have lived out the words. Do you get the gist of where I am heading. Doing is a very important part of church but being for me is the most important one. In all of this if people see our lives changed they are going to wonder how it happened and we can tell them, in church. That means we have to make &#8220;church&#8221; different with different ways of offering worship, teaching, etc. to keep the ones we have and provide a safe place for the new ones to come in. Most adults will come in as &#8220;little children&#8221; in their understanding of the bible or anything else. Are our churches capable now of offering &#8220;spiritual food&#8221; to adults new to all of this? I think not !! If we want them to come in we must provide for their needs as they are and that may mean changing what we do into &#8220;beauty&#8221; as has been suggested. Let the beauty begin with our lives.</p>
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		<title>By: deacon burrley</title>
		<link>http://homebrewedchristianity.com/2009/10/11/the-church-as-more-than-necessary-some-culminating-thoughts-on-secularity/comment-page-1/#comment-8209</link>
		<dc:creator>deacon burrley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 22:46:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://homebrewedchristianity.com/?p=2137#comment-8209</guid>
		<description>Glad you posted again. 
Here&#039;s my question. I like your thesis but wonder if most people in the American church don&#039;t treat church as one legit option for moral formation.  The idea of Gift and more than necessary assumes a real dynamic relationship to God which seems to have exited during the process of secularization. 

Maybe I could ask it this way- how would you define the purpose and function of religion as you have developed it in the series? How would you make the case to those in the church that religious institutions are needed to instill the moral fiber society needs?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glad you posted again.<br />
Here&#8217;s my question. I like your thesis but wonder if most people in the American church don&#8217;t treat church as one legit option for moral formation.  The idea of Gift and more than necessary assumes a real dynamic relationship to God which seems to have exited during the process of secularization. </p>
<p>Maybe I could ask it this way- how would you define the purpose and function of religion as you have developed it in the series? How would you make the case to those in the church that religious institutions are needed to instill the moral fiber society needs?</p>
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