Reforming Ecclesiology in Emerging Churches with LeRon Shults: Homebrewed Christianity 61
By Tripp Fuller • Sep 1st, 2009 • Category: emergent, podcast, pomoLeRon Shults is back on the podcast! This podcast is like none other……why? LeRon is sharing an article with us AND has said he would love to dialogue with listeners\readers\Deacons in the comments of the post. Ohh did I mention LeRon will ask the question, “Should affluent white men be ordained?” So enjoy the podcast, share the podcast, read the article, and do not forget to drop LeRon your question, comment, or shout out.
You may remember when LeRon last joined us for some incarnational reflection during advent where we discussed evolutionary biology and the incarnation. His name remains notorious in the emerg-o-sphere for authoring Emergent Village’s statement on why they do not have a faith statement. In the blog-o-sphere he has his own URL. In the theo-sphere you find LeRon to be an insightful and publishing force to be reckoned with. In his current write-o-sphere is a book on ‘Transforming Compassion.’ After working through the doctrine of God, Anthropology, and Christology LeRon wrapped up his series of theological ‘reframing’ with an article in Theology Today entitled, ‘Reforming Ecclesiology in Emerging Churches.’ That article is the entrance point for my conversation with LeRon in this episode and is available to you for your reading pleasure HERE.
Thank you LeRon for sharing the article and for being open to dialoguing with the listeners.
From the intro….
- The UK Deacon who brought the call-in heat
- Pete Rollins multiple podcast appearances (something beautiful & Nick and Josh)
- One of our ‘Zune’ users and fellow podcaster of beautiful things.
Tripp Fuller is married to an awesome lady Alecia and has a handsome little baby boy named Elgin Thomas (aka E.T.) and Pebbles, the Schnoodle. He and Alecia are both graduates of Campbell University (where they met), the Divinity School of Wake Forest University and ordained ministers. He is working on his PhD in Philosophy of Religion and Theology at Claremont Graduate University. A few other things he digs are books, cigars, pipes, Shaq, guitar, pirates, fishing, the Counting Crows, and good conversations about Religion and Politics. The podcast is the most time consuming hobby he has ever had besides reading and blogging through Wolfhart Pannenberg's 3 volume systematic theology. Follow Tripp on Twitter | Tripp on Facebook
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Glad to have a slow morning so I could listen to an awesome interview. Here’s my question for LeRon and other Deacons…how tied is Protestantiam its theology and denominations to the Creedal emphasis on oneness and sameness and the like? How does the Emerging Churchs move towards the other end of that philosophical spectrum change things? What new theological and liturgical practices are likely to create dividing lines? What other intuitions do you have for the practical outcomes of this shift? It seems the acceptance of people wig different sexual orientations would be part of it?
[...] asks “Should affluent white men be ordained?” Yeah, it’s a doozy! Listen here: Reforming Ecclesiology in Emerging Churches with LeRon Shults: Homebrewed Christianity 61 you can also subscribe to their podcast with iTunes. Share and [...]
Love you Tripp. Miss ya bro…………. thou doth rock!
mucho Texas sized love and a holy elbow!
xocat
Hi Deacon Burrley,
Those are big questions! Protestant churches differ widely in their attitude toward creeds, and in the extent to which they are tied to sameness categories. I’m afraid my response to the practical implications question is equally vague… simply because of the diversity within “emerging” churches. I’ve seen all kinds of new liturgical practices, which I guess, is kind of the point – openness to difference. Emergents relate to difference differently, less fear, more fascination; such an approach does not determine in advance what decision one needs to make in judging “others.”
LeRon
Hey Tripp,
Would you be interested in receiving a copy of my book, “The Good News According to Jesus: A New Kind of Christianity for a New Kind of Christian, published by Smyth and Helwys (March, 2009)?
Over the last three or four years I have been leading my small Baptist congregation to engage in theological reflection and discover Jesus’ focus on the kingdom of God. My book presents a version of Christian faith that is, I think, more holistic, inclusive, gracious, and intellectually credible than what is typically found in traditional Christianity.
If you supply me with a mailing address I’ll send you a copy. I figure that if you like it, you might mention it sometime; if not, you can use it to level your night stand.
Chuck Queen, Pastor
Immanuel Baptist Church, Frankfort
LeRon:
Thanks for the generative article. I am especially interested in the subject of power, which you touch on a number of times (for example, on pages 428-429, 434, and 437). Given that (like me) you were “nurtured by the Reformed tradition,” I’m wondering if you have any thoughts about how this tradition’s theological emphases (the sovereignty of God, providence, common grace, etc.) have contributed to the acquisition of power and the maintenance of the status quo. Are persons embedded in the Reformed tradition more likely to be among (borrowing your words) “those who are anxious about maintaining psychological and political control”? I’m wrestling with questions like this one.
Hi Josh,
I should begin by admitting that although I was in a sense “nurtured” by the Reformed tradition I have also found many of its adherents… well, not so nurturing
So, in my experience, there are some streams (and members) of that tradition that are obsessed with power, and others that are not. Of course, it would be an interesting psychological or sociological study to survey or interview, e.g., Calvinists and Arminians, and see if there is a correlation between personality power issues and theological position! 
LeRon
@ josh if you haven’t read shults book on reforming the doctrine of god you should. I believe there he talks about the omnioptence of love. It address your concern I think.
The fact that LeRon uses emoticons is awesome.
I was wondering what images or metaphors for the church have more of a ‘reforming’ flavor? For example, I am generally put back when people describe the church as a harbor or some other peaceful escape from the world.
And yes D. Burrley Reforming the Doctrine of God was indeed good. If I remember correctly the section on the omnipotence of love lacked a discussion on the suffering of God. Not really related to ecclesiology but it did set off my proess-relational sensors…..
Thanks LeRon
I enjoyed your essay and there are many things that I agree with. But let me respond as a non-theological lay person.
I was heartened to see the statement “If emergents have anything in common it is a desire to embrace the prophetic, the enthusiastic, and even the mystical.” However in my experience this has not been true.
The people of the New Testament seemed obsessed with the subject of prophecy. The word is mentioned 188 times in the New Testament while the word “pastor” is only used once. Prophecy was usually predictive or relevatory. Whether is was Jesus weeping as He saw the walls of the temple being torn down and soldiers invading, Agabus’s 3 daughters who predicted Paul’s arrest, the Jerusalem prophet who predicted famine or the prophets in the Corinthian Church that revealed the secrets of a person’s heart. Moses wished that all could prophesy, Paul suggested to the Corinthians that they could all prophesy one by one and urged them to covet the gift of prophesy. Even the Old Testament prophets were predictive and very specific about the future of nations, people, weather etc. The gift of prophecy is a very active gift within Pentecostal and Charismatic congregations. According to the World Christian Database, there are nearly 80 million renewalists in the United States, including pentecostals, charismatics and neo-charismatics. I have never been to an emergent church that embraced the prophetic, not have I ever heard a prophetic utterance in an emergent congregation.
Embracing the enthusiastic (or the en theos) within the context of the church is also something I rarely see emergents do. I have been to many churches that singing loudly and enthusiastically, raise their hands, cry for joy or even dance as David so enthusiastically did. This is also a distinctive of the Black church.
The emergent conversation seems to be afraid of the mystical. People in renewalist congregations see visions, have prophetic dreams, see angels, speak in tongues, lie silent and prostrate for hours lost in worship. Their mystical experiences are deep, varied and plentiful. The 120 disciples were said to appear and act drunk on the day of Pentecost as they were filled with the Holy Spirit. That happens today as well.
I am not understanding your point about colonial missional obsession. Paul urged us to be ambassadors. He also said that our citizenship is in heaven. “But we are citizens of heaven, where the Lord Jesus Christ lives. And we are eagerly waiting for him to return as our Savior. He will take our weak mortal bodies and change them into glorious bodies like his own, using the same power with which he will bring everything under his control.” One enters the Kingdom of heaven through Jesus who is the gate. Are we not on a city set on a hill? We have a different King, different language, different behavior, different citizenship which all new converts are expected to embrace.
I am also puzzled by the “model of salvation in which the primary focus is on individuals who are called upon to make a cognitive decision about particular propositions (related to Jesus) in order to ensure that their souls will go to heaven.” No matter how large the crowd, Jesus dealt with individuals. He told Nicodemus that no one can see the Kingdom of God unless he is born again. And further that this required belief and evidentiary reasoning. “I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life” Our commission is to “Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone. Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned. These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages.”
I know you are a professional theologian but the gospel you are proposing feels very unfamiliar to me as I think it would to most African Christians, Chinese christians and South American Christians. These are joyfully converted believers who simply read the Bible and naively do it. I fear that If emergents refuse to define their belief systems and reject what they view as old paradigms of evangelism, they may dissappear like the Albigensians who died out in one generation because sex was sinful and they failed to reproduce.
Thanks for your thoughts.
@ Rick I don’t want to be LeRon or answer anything for him, but there are a number of charasmatic emergents that I know and one of them has already commented (wink Cathryn).
Here’s the facebook group : http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=11141833031
Hi Rick and Tripp,
Yes, I’m familiar with a number of charismatic emergents too. When I used the word “prophetic” I was not thinking of that specific Pauline reference of the “manifestation” of the Spirit in a congregation, but the more general sense of the prophetic, as those who challenge the status quo and urge communities toward reformation in relation to the divine.
LeRon
Ok, so thanks for the wink Tripp- so here might be my elbow. – Rick thanks for taking the time to “flesh” some stuff out and sharing your thoughts. I jokingly refer to myself as a PomoCharis-Mystic and a closet theologian of sorts. I hold to the stance that things shouldn’t be so complicated it gets in the way of a child like heart, nor should it be so dumbed down that it relegates thought to double digit IQ’s. I’ve been involved with the Emergent Convo for quite sometime, yet planted in prophetic streams and working beneath the radar in organic church or third space settings. This might be my personal rant per say……… and a tad more global… but i’ve seen the charismatic / prophetic leaning grow more in the Emergent. (more so from the UK than the US) – From one whom walks in prophetic gifting, my sense on it is that God is nudging that we all need prophetic revelation on His heart on things. Relationally we need each other’s gifts to know the deeper parts of of unity. I need Tripp’s insight and understanding on matters to see clearer, his wisdom and ability to break things down and teach is amazing– just as much as he needs an occasional “Holy Elbow” just to get his head out of just talking about it to actually doing it. (and yes, he’s heard me pray in tongues over a good beer too!) The landscape of the Prophetic and the Mystics are as much needed as the Pastors, Theologians and Teachers- however i do agree, that it’s a new stream that is flowing. I tend to think it’s a “language thing”…. that gets in the way, so i work hard at speaking theologeez and a tad more Bapstisee when i’m around Tripp than i do with some of my artsy-flowee mystic friends where the never ending metaphor spins like plates on sticks while walking on a high wire of grace.
Ok, so much for my ramblings…
Love and blessings so thick you can’t wash them off with a fire hose.
xoxocat
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