“However, Baptists can be contentious, disorderly, and unloving in articulating a specific point of view on almost any issue. If we attempt to follow the attitude that characterized Jesus, if we read the letters of Paul from both sides of every argument, e. g. the role of women in the church, without claiming Paul’s “apostolic authority” over those with whom we differ, perhaps—perhaps—thoughtful Baptists can come to a friendly consensus without the devastation of verbal, attitudal, and doctrinal violence.”

Perhaps Jesus could have been more like Dr. Tipper when he called the religious people of his day “snakes and vipers” or “white-washed tombs.” Maybe if we read the “other side” of Paul’s letters where he called the Judiazers “those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh” we would find Dr. Tipper’s quiet and unassuming disposition? Maybe Dr. Tipper should scold the Apostle Paul for being contentious when he told them: “As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!” (Gal. 5:12). Poor Jude! Why couldn’t he have worked to find a friendly consensus without the devastation of saying, “In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion” (Jude 7). Such violence! I wonder what verbal verbal, attitudal, and doctrinal violence waits me for all my posts today? Or will there be more of the “silence” Dr. Tipper seems to abhor?

“Since [naked] as well as [clothed] persons are children of the church, children of our extended families, children in our own household, and already children of God, we could welcome [puritans] and [nudist] persons alike. Perhaps in an eventual larger conversation, a congregation talking to the [male and female nudists] Christians within its congregational life, a genuine consensus with “ifs” and “buts” will emerge.” [I know the "butts" will emerge!] LOL. I’m sorry but this is so absurd I couldn’t resist!

“They are committed to the integrity of the Church in faithfulness to Christ, and simultaneously they generally refuse to exercise violence on anyone—those with whom they agree and disagree. Is it an act of violence to exclude homosexual Christians from the life of the church? Of course, it would be an act of violence to superimpose a majority viewpoint on a congregation, whatever the majority might be.”

You can see how absurd this argument is by replacing the moral issue at hand, which Dr. Tipper is amiable and replace it with one he would “violently” disagree. “Is it an act of violence to exclude nudist Christians from the life of the church?” (Yes, they exist!) For heaven’s sake, Christians cannot fellowship with everyone! Can Baptists and Wiccans join together at the Winter Sol for a nude dance? It is more “natural” to go naked is it not? How many nudists wait in silence for Christians to quit doing them violence by excluding them from worship! They are only being EXACTLY how God created them to be–absolutely naked. “Of course, it would be an act of violence to superimpose a majority viewpoint on a congregation.” We should be loving like Christ and welcome and celebrate the nudists too! Tell me how this is different?

“…The question of homosexuality is a clear-cut issue that Christian churches have resoundingly rejected for centuries—from the earliest traditions in the beginning of New Testament churches. Younger persons reflect a very different perspective. “Homosexuals” are persons they know in the mutuality of friendship, and they accept them inside and outside the church as authentic persons worthy of respect.”

There are many “older” Christians who are friends with gay people and reject the clear-cut teaching of Christian churches. Dr. Tipper apparently is one of them. There are many “young” people who have not spit in the face of “the earliest traditions in the beginning of the New Testament churches” and yet have friends who are gay. I work with hundreds of young people everyday and they long for orthodoxy not the wishy-washy, ambivalent, and uncertain faith of liberal churches. This is a false dichotomy because it assumes that either you love gay people by affirming their behavior or don’t love them at all. Rubbish! Love does not delight in evil but rejoices in the truth.

Most churches and Christians have clarity on this issue because the Bible and historical Christianity have been clear. Baptists have believed in the priesthood of the believer and freedom of religion but until recently have they dared to deny some of the most foundational understandings of the gospel. Baptists are orthodox when it comes to basic Christianity. Dr. Tipper lives in an ivory tower where everything is tenuous and this distorts his view on the church as a whole.

This is self-contradictory. A commitment to Christ and Christian ministry presupposes a commitment to the teachings of Christ and his apostles.

P.S. Deacon Burrley, genetics plays a role in everything but unless you are willing to deny the concept of free will because of it, this is merely a straw doll.

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.abpnews.com%2Findex.php%3Foption%3Dcom_conten&h=0cf4988a89561dc48f77211c8d7b9197al info to Dr. Tupper’s posting on homosexuality.

Though most gay and lesbian young people end up leaving the church, some of them stay, and some of them even are our ministers and staff and they hold positions of leadership. For these people who are still “in the closet,” the silence on this issue is particularly devastating as their careers, ministries, friends, professional network, and families are all potentially threatened by any wrong move or any ambiguous word. As a gay, closeted minister in a moderate baptist church, I pray that soon more people will speak for those of us who are unable to speak.

As a queer woman who is also a Christ-follower, i appreciated your post. i think you bring up some valid points in this very important and necessary conversation.

You said, ‘These young people have not engaged in any serious Bible study about the subject of homosexuality, of same-sex relationships.’ i disagree a bit because the young people i run into are studying the BIBLE and reading outside sources that look at the clobber passages ‘against’ homosexuality in renewed fashion, and thus, rethinking previously held beliefs/interpretations of their parents/churches. i just think they are more open to seriously rethinking their beliefs and considering their parents/churches could be wrong.

i also agree with your statement that, ‘The truth is that most congregations have not studied the issue of homosexuality in the Bible from various Christian viewpoints, and they have not engaged in serious conversation with each other in recognition of the moral ambiguity in any option chosen./ SO VERY TRUE! This is one of desires – to have a safe space where both sides can dialogue and converse and learn.

i would LOVE to extend an invitation to you to contribute to my group blog, Queermergent, if you’d be interested. Check out the site and contact me if interested in continuing the conversation you began here!
http://queermergent.com/

Blessings!
Adele

i do agree with you when you said, ‘The younger generations think and say to one another: “Our church was wrong on every issue—racial segregation in schools and public facilities; the pain of divorce but worth of the divorced person; women’s rights extended beyond voting to education and opportunity; unanimity in support of war, any war.’ They see the inconsistencies and begin questioning which is healthy and good.

“Is it an act of violence to exclude homosexual Christians from the life of the church? Of course, it would be an act of violence to superimpose a majority viewpoint on a congregation, whatever the majority might be.”

These are two important points of injustice.

I think many older leaders are afraid that younger leaders are demanding a clear stance in favor of “welcoming & celebrating.” This is simply not the case. We are demanding a real conversation.

Perhaps the greatest value of a honest conversation is that the biblical wisdom of older leaders and the relational wisdom of the younger can find a place of relative harmony. That is, if we are allowed the space to talk about together.

Thanks for your voice Frank, and for owning your responsibility to the next generation of clergy.