Baptists, Homosexuality, and the Church

kapellmeister is so right, at least as I am concerned, It is shameful that there are those who must "remain under a veil of secrecy", in order that they might serve the God they love and that loves them. I was lying also when I went with my dear gay friend to several small mountain churches so that he could preach. He was not ordained. We did not present ourselves as a couple, because we were not, just great friends. They would not have allowed him to come had they known of his sexual preference. They loved him and treated him well. We were both misrepresenting who he was and that was so difficult for me. I hate lying but in this case I justified it because I wanted to give him the opportunity that he would not have had otherwise. Let's all keep praying and speaking out on this very crucial matter. If we speak and act in love maybe we can change some thinking and acting in others. We must model what we want to occur in this world on this and every subject. Maybe someone will come up with a "vision" of what it could be and we can work hard to help make that vision come to life. Having separate churches for homosexuals to me is not the answer. Churches must commit to being all inclusive and go about making that commitment come to life.

"...it is an issue throughout the United States that we Baptists have not addressed and may never address until the achievement of a consensus in American culture that will resolve the issue for us." The CBF even had to wait for the United Nations for us to decide to take intentional steps towards alleviating poverty. POVERTY! Why would we be taking our cues from a secular organization over the issue about which Christ speaks of the most? As Tupper suggests, we are simply loosing large numbers of folks because there is no place for them--we are people who are simply not given a place in the church. But, there are those who remain in the church, indeed, those who WORK for our churches and those who are very active, who must remain under a veil of secrecy. Because of moderate Baptists' positions (or lack thereof), these faithful Baptist are forced to lie and to pretend to be persons they are not. This has devastating consequences both personally and as a fellowship.

The CBF needs to address this issue. Someday people will be embarassed at how this issue has been kept in the closet. No wonder people are leaving the church in droves... the universal church is becoming irrelevant because we are trailing "the world" with regards to progress. However, on a personal level, the conversation around homosexuality is no longer interesting to me. That a person being gay can be considered "wrong" is about as silly to me as saying it is morally wrong to prefer a spinach salad to a lettuce salad. So while I would have welcomed Dr. Tupper's conversation at the CBF because it might increase justice in the world... it's just so discouraging that it remains, as Frank says, a divisive issue. It's just ridiculous.

Chad and Tripp this dude is awesome. Frank it is stuff like this that made me leave CBF and go UCC. This story is one more example of how CBF is going to miss the chance at being a vibrant and growing fellowship. Once all the old ones who think ordaining and not hiring a women is radical are dead how many people will see much a difference between them and the SBC ?

Frank, I continue to be grateful for the ways you challenge me (and all of us) to remain in conversation with the church, both universal and local...to be intentionally relevant. It is tempting to throw hands up and say "'they' [church/denominational leaders] will never change" and go my own way. Thank you for your persistence in meeting the thirst for discussion in a sensitive manner and for your thoughtful, as always, presentation. Unlike so many issues we may discuss in the church that are important yet feel abstract, this issue takes on the faces of folks that we love and sing next to each Sunday and work alongside in missions and service. It's not an issue of "them" in which we can objectify one another - it's an issue of "us". We owe it to one another to be authentic in our relationships if nothing else. How can we do that if we don't talk and listen to one another candidly in a spirit of love?

I might add to my previous comment that a life time best friend was gay. We grew up in the same neighborhood and attended the same schools. He was many years older than I but we were always friends. We belonged to the same church for many years, Knollwood Baptist in Winston-Salem. He had a beautiful voice and sang in the choir. We would vacation together, going to the beach, day trips to every place you can think of, etc. Both of us loved to play cards and scrabble and he was in my home numerous times alone and with other friends playing for hours. He was a lay minister and was given an opportunity to preach to several little churches in the mountains. I went with him for appearance sake as they did not know he was gay. Had they known he would not have been allowed to preach. To walk with him during all these years and see his heart break was so very difficult for me. I wanted to shout and fight those who thought he was a "bad" person because of his sexuality. I learned however, that that would not work and they were entitled to their beliefs as well as me. I prayed that things would change. My friend withdrew from life and people. He became very bitter even with my help and the love of others. He simply could not accept himself as gay and many others could not accept him as well. His family, once they knew, had nothing to do with him. Before he died he wanted nothing to do with the church. Did not want a funeral. Did not want his family to know that he had been in what turned out to be a fatal car wreck, etc. One of his male friends and his wife and I ministered to him during his confinement and upon his death I found a way to let the family know without breaking any promises made to my friend. We later brought the family and a few friends together to break bread with us. During this time I began sharing stories of my friend in his memory and to also help his family to see the person he really was not the awful homosexual they thought he was. It was a very emotional time for all of us but it was so very healing. If everyone would just realize how badly they are making others feel with their insistance on the wiping out of homosexuality and that it is a mortal sin maybe, just maybe someone would change their mind. Try to walk in anothers shoes and see how very painful it really is and what they are doing to harm a child of God. My friend died never knowing the joy of his faith. Joy in your faith includes the exceptance of who God created you to be and to love that person. My friend never learned how to love and accept himself. I pray others will not make the same mistake but do everything to learn who they are and who God created them to be. I cannot be Jesus I must be Jo Ann but I can learn and have learned a great deal from the study of Jesus and the compainship of The Holy Spirit. I want to be a Christ follower and a friend to all and work and study towards that end. This leads me to acting on and out of my convictions by trying to love as Jesus did.

How disappointing that this conversation was not allowed to take place. CBF mad a bad decision, in my opinion. They lost a great opportunity to play a big role in helping to "mend this world." Why are we so afraid to talk about, in a healthy way, the broad subject of sexuality in general much less homosexuality. As Dr. Tupper said "my primary concern for discussion of the issue of homosexuality is the simple truth, it is not an issue." I agree there are some reasons for not having these converstions in our local churches that must be taken into consideration before we begin. Dr. Tupper's concerns are legitimate and his sensitivity towards others must be applauded. If CBF had taken the leadership in the endeavor, it would have made it easier for a local pastor to approach the subject. One of my concerns is what the climate would be like in these situations. A pastor should be willing to lead as well as listen to what is said and maintain a "safe" place for participants to voice their affirmations and/or concerns. There is a higher power (love) that should prevail over self rightous anger or fear. God loves everyone whether homosexual or hetorosexual and each must be valued. I think this subject should be approached in a sense of love and humility towards ALL. Any opinion forced on another is unchristian for me. I can understand a person's anger in this situation but beg their patience as we work through this terrible situation. We must love homosexuals and they must love hetorosexuals. We need each other. Thank you Dr. Tupper for being so courageous in your efforts during the years and for taking the lead in wanting CBF to take a leadership role along with you. As we work through this we must keep a vision in front of us as to "how things could be not just what it should be" and work towards that end. By this I mean what kind of world we would want to live in. A loving world community or a legalistic one. One of loving children of God or self righteous dictators of what we consider as truth. I will be contacting the National CBF and expressing my concerns. Let's also contact our local pastors and see how we as lay ministers can join with them in beginning a conversation for the good of our fellow man/woman.

I know an attempt was made in 2003 to have a discussion at the General Assembly in Charlotte as well. It ended up that a group met off-site, but with very little advance notice or publicity. Interestingly this movement was led by some of our most elderly members, like the Rev. Bruce Lowe of 'Letter to Louise" fame (www.godmademegay.com). The CBF, its churches, and entities keep sticking their heads in the sand as the entire culture transforms on this issue. It is one reason that I and many other young ministers have now joined the United Church of Christ where people are not afraid of open discussion.

I was very disappointed to read that CBF cancelled Dr. Tupper's breakout. I was a student of Dr. Tupper's at Wake Forest, and II used his lecture notes on homosexuality as a basis for discussion in a 3 week study of homosexuality and the church in my Sunday School class last year. The study went exceptionally well, no one got angry, no one left the church, and, the walls did not fall down. In fact, the class was unanimous in its opinion that the issue needed to be discussed. We did not all agree in the end, but that's ok. In fact, that is very Baptist. The church I currently serve is affiliated with the North Carolina Baptist Convention and CBF, but it could not be considered to be liberal by any stretch of the imagination. I keep reading that young people are staying away from the church because they don't believe it is relevant any more. CBF's failure to discuss this issue is proving their point. I am disappointed but not surprised, after all, CBF had a day long AIDS summit a few years ago in which homosexuality was not mentioned either. It was like the big pink elephant in the room that no one wanted to talk about. I am in the process of writing an e-mail to Bo Prosser and Daniel Vestal expressing my disappointment. I am the most disappointed because I have little doubt that such a breakout session would have provided churches with a much needed resource to serve as the jumping off point for a discussion of homosexuality.